D&D Blog: Turn Undead and Monster Weaknesses

[BryonD]

The undead reel back, feebly trying to ward themselves against it, but are quickly consumed and blown to ash by a blinding holy radiance.

That is iconic to me.

The whole notion of undead running away has always bothered me.

I think that the "turning" (aka causing them to go away) is a direct port of the old cliche of keeping Dracula at bay by holding up a cross.

IMO opinion that is far more "iconic" than blasting undead.

Not that blasting them isn't way cool........

 

[BryonD]

Not everyone will agree with these values.

I'm certain they won't.

But, I'm strongly of the opinion that you can make a complex game with no consideration of the need for stream lining and then add on options that provide easy to use approximations.

If you try to build the game on the need for simplicity then the advanced options are shoehorned on top then the depth of the game is ultimately limited.
The limit might be really good. But these days you have to be better than just "really good".

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, in a purely conceptual sense I don't have an issue with the whole weaknesses and exploiting thing. It CAN run into issues with something like clerics and a whole common class of rather nasty monsters. OTOH it is a known quantity and can be anticipated. Other weakness mechanics can be fine too. I just don't quite understand at a nuts-and-bolts level how Trevor's proposal is exactly supposed to work.

 

[GX.Sigma]

The article implies that all of a creature's weaknesses cause the same effect. What about a vampire, then?

Weakness: Garlic, wolfbane
Effect: Vampire is kept at bay

Weakness: Running water
Effect: Vampire cannot cross of own free will

Weakness: Mirror
Effect: Vampire is panicked and cannot focus on anything except destroying or otherwise rendering unviewable the mirror or, if this is impossible, averting eyes

Weakness: Daylight
Effect: Vampire loses shapeshifting powers

Weakness: Vampire is presented with many small, countable objects
Effect: Vampire must count them all. A vampire can get through 1d8 objects per round. During this time, the vampire cannot take any other action, but will still rest when necessary. The count is reset after a day's rest or when the objects or vampire are disrupted such that the vampire loses count.

Weakness: Wooden stake through heart while sleeping
Effect: Permanent death

Weakness: Turn undead
Effect: Whatever turn undead does in 5e

 

[Ahnehnois]

I would be quite happy to see a standard "weaknesses" entry in stat blocks for monsters.

And PCs.

 

[GM Dave]

I *think* it's because (most) undead are supposed to be fearless, and only the divine can make them "remember" what it is to be afraid of death again. Therefore, Turn Undead.

A blessed sword could, as a magical property, be used to turn undead, but the plain "deal holy damage" types would only cause concern to inteligent undead - and even then, it wouldn't be any different than an adventurer being threatened by monsters.

Well, by that logic then I'm much like the undead.

I'm fearless too until someone puts a sword to my throat or threatens me with a loaded crossbow.

A slug is fearless too but put some salt or fire in its path and it will try and go another way.

I don't understand the idea of a 'plain' deal holy damage weapon. If the weapon (in 4e terms) does radiant damage then I don't think it needs any additional rider/ability to be considered a threat by anything. A slug or an ant recognizes fire and I'd think a creature vulnerable/weakness to holy/radiant damage would recognize the existence of the item.

You can threaten or train even things that most people would consider unintelligent which means that you can in some way communicate with these creatures (even zombies and skeletons can be communicated with otherwise a Necromancer would never be able to even get these things to follow them much less stand in a straight line for a minute).

Treating a turn check as an Intimidation, Bluff, or Bribe check offers some interesting possibilities.

1> It is something that many classes might be able to attempt with training and having the right item to back up the threats. You might need something that shows your ability to cause radiant/holy damage (whether this be a spell like cure wounds, a holy weapon, or a scroll/book of holy writs) and the ability to communicate with undead (part of a cleric's normal skill set as they use prayers during burials to set the spirit at ease).

2> An evil cleric would just need to do the opposite to attempt to gain service from a creature (though any class that could get the pieces together could attempt the Diplomacy or Intimidation to get a result).

3> When it comes to Intimidation there is usually a fairly clear link between level and their ability to cause harm (grant aid) which would reflect the growth of ability to affect tougher creatures and more intelligent opponents. If you choose to Bluff then you might only hold the upper hand in a situation until your opponent learns of the weakness of your powers or the source of your powers (lose the holy sword and the vampire will be having you for supper).

 

[MortalPlague]

I can see why they are going for it. But "Invoking weakness" is much too gamey for my tastes. In concept and the name.

I'm not sure I follow how this mechanic is 'gamey'. Monsters have weaknesses, and how they operate varies from edition to edition. To use trolls for instance; in 5th edition, if trolls have in their entry: "Weakness: Fire and acid. Any damage from fire and acid cannot be regenerated", is that a 'gamey' mechanic?

For common creatures, this would end up being common knowledge (what player doesn't know about trolls or werewolves and their weaknesses?). But if the DM introduces a new type of monster that's savaging the wild, the characters can delve into books, or talk to NPCs to try and find a weakness.

Also, this shoehorns all kinds of class abilities into one mechanic even though they deserve their own flavorful mechanic.

I agree with you here, though; sneak attack, hunter's quarry (or favored enemy), and all that stuff shouldn't use the weakness box. They ought to have their own mechanics.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I also don't like the idea of being able to invoke a creature's weakness without the proper means to do so. If trolls are your favoured enemy, however, then I would certainly give you the full knowledge of their weakness!