D&D Brand Manager of Fluff

[diaglo]

2nd edition never had published god stats. I don't think Basic did, either. It's sort of unique to 3rd and 1st edition.

OD&D had them.
Supplement IV (1976)

 

[Particle_Man]

So stats for gods/avatars are "unique" to OD&D, 1st ed AD&D, 2nd ed AD&D, and 3rd ed.

And didn't BXCMI have Immortals rules?

Come to think of it, what version of D&D *doesn't* have stats for avatars and gods?

 

[Shemeska]

Come to think of it, what version of D&D *doesn't* have stats for avatars and gods?

An abbreviated stat block for an avatar is a bit different then spending a page on telling us in exact game mechanics what Thor's jump skill bonus is, what Set's attack bonus is, and what Sung-Chiang's bluff skill happens to be including synergy bonuses from his other 500 odd skill points.

3.x god stats strike me as being a rose-colored, nostalgic look back to fighting Thor at the end of the extraplanar Norse dungeon back in the 70s. Outside of using deities as big monsters, which I'm sure some people do, I suspect you'll get a heck of a lot more use out of information that otherwise would get bumped in favor of a gigantic 3.x statblock.

Avatars/aspects (which I'm all for) on the other hand make for something of the best of both worlds. They provide monsters if you want to have PCs fight them, but they allow for there to be no true stat block for their namesakes, avoiding the issue of a false dichotomy between planar lords and gods, and they don't take up as much space.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Ah, but that's exactly my problem with the deity stats I know of (Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons): between the insanely high numbers and abilities like "always gets a 20 on d20" the stats lose their purpose.

If Thor always hits any character I'm likely to use, I don't need to know if his attack bonus is +70 or +71.

Fiendish Codex II, with it's (relatively) low-powered demon lords was much more on the right track. As far as I'm concerned, they don't even have to be labeled as aspects. I'd be perfectly happy if the assumed upper power limit for creatures that get treated as creatures rather than concepts (like, for example, Eberron gods) was assumed to be CR/level ~30, even for deities and demon lords. I haven't seen or heard of many games progressing to the point where you can meaningfully interact with anything much past that, and in the end, interaction is what it's all about.

I think you make some excellent points. Besides the Fiendish Codexes, Dungeon has also led the way in presenting deity-strength opponents that, while extraordinarily powerful, can be dealt with by high-level characters with smart players.

Spoiler

I think this is especially true in the climactic adventure for the Age of Worms Adventure Path. Kyuss is a very good example of a deity level opponent that the PCs can take on with a reasonable chance of victory, if they've played their cards right. Yes, some might balk at the huge stat block for Kyuss, but c'mon, he's a god, after all

.

Personally, I liked the 2e concept of avatars for deities, which has morphed into the aspect concept in 3e. I disappointed in the 3e version of Deities & Demigods like some were, but I will admit that I was disappointed that stats for avatars were not included for every deity. Even the ones that were included were probably beyond the power of epic level PCs, if they were done strictly by the rules as written.

 

[Balesir]

Lots of very nice ideas, but I note a lack of love for one exceptionally different and innovative setting - Birthright. It was by no means popular enough to justify a setting book, as I understand it, but it contained three highly interesting concepts that IMO deserve development for their own sakes. These three would need to mix in a good pinch of crunch to make sense, but still would be quite 'fluffy'...

• - Book of Rulership: Power blocks and ruling heirarchies - how do they work? What are some examples? Systems for macro-economic play (a la Birthright, but for generic settings, so with 'Regency' removed) - countries, churches, merchant princedoms, thieves' guilds, law enforcement/ruling agencies etc., etc. Complete with examples from history and some fleshing out of influence mechanics and relationship mapping, maybe?
  
  - Book of Legacies: Dragonmarks in Eberron and Bloodlines in Birthright are just two examples of legacies that characters may have handed down to them. Let's have lots more! Mix with obvious crunch but also detail the backgrounds to the different types of 'mark' that a creature might have. Possibilities for 'taint' as a price for such 'marks'. How do such legacies relate to sorcery and such?
  
  - Deep Magic: Birthright had the idea of Magical Sources and ley lines made by ritual to join them together. What other 'deep magical secrets' might the world (any world!) hold, and how might these be interacted with by characters? Worlds where spell recovery/preparation is limited or there is a price for magic. How do magical power-politics work? What matters more than gold to a mighty mage? An alternative title might be 'Beyond Spells - A Supernatural Miscellany'.

For the other five? Pick and mix from some excellent ideas above - I'm not too proud to steal!

 

[Greg K]

My choices:
1. World of Greyhawk Campaign Setting: Eric Mona is in charge (and keep the rest of Design and Development away from this book)

2. Core Beliefs: collect Sean Reynold's articles from Dragon and then hire him to finish the other Greyhawk deities (and keep the rest of Design and Development away from this book)

3 a book on running low magic campaigns.

4. Heroes of Intrigue: a book on running espionage and mystery

5. Complete Class variants
- collects class variants and variant class abiltities from UA, PHB2, Complete Champion, Cityscape Enhancement
- 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook kits as class variants*.
- 2e Complete Druid's handbook environmental kits done as class variants
- 2e Complete Thief's Handbook kits as class variants*
- 2e Complete Wizard's Handbook kits update as class variant .
- Reintroduces the missing 2e wizard specialist Wizards (e.g., Alchemeist, Dimensionalist and Song Mage),specialists wizards gain unique abilities (as per UA specialist wizard variant abilities) gain own spell lists

* The treatment would be similar to the Fighter variant: Thug (PHB, UA) and Rogue variant: Wilderness Rogue (UA)

6. Priest's and Pantheons: Reintroduces 2e specialty priests. Each specialty priest has unique spell lists based upon . Guidelines for building one's own pantheon and specilaty priests.

7. Faerie book: Unlike Monster Manuals 3 and 4 which I disliked (I haven't seen 5, but I don't like what I have heard), these themed books (e.g., Fiendish Codex and Lords of Madness) I do like.

8. Arabian Adventures

I would have put Dark Sun Campaign setting in there, but after what the design and development team did to the setting in Dragon, there is no way I want them touching it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Lots of very nice ideas, but I note a lack of love for one exceptionally different and innovative setting - Birthright. It was by no means popular enough to justify a setting book,

Really? Well, I've noticed a pretty steady stream of love for it throughout the years on these boards (and others). It also inspired a pretty diligent fan movement on the web. So, while it may not have the following of some of the others, I think a setting book is justified. GURPS thrived for years on setting books for many, many obscure settings; I think one setting book for Birthright for D&D would do OK, at least make a little money.

 

[der_kluge]

2e had avatar stats.

True, but avatar stats aren't the same as god stats. In 2nd edition, the implication was that "gods were gods, and couldn't just be 'killed'". You had to find other, more creative ways to destroy a god - like, destroy all their followers.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

2nd edition never had published god stats. I don't think Basic did, either. It's sort of unique to 3rd and 1st edition.

As others have pointed out, 2e is unique in not having god stats. And, as someone else pointed out, D&D isn't unique in having RPG stats for gods.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

True, but avatar stats aren't the same as god stats. In 2nd edition, the implication was that "gods were gods, and couldn't just be 'killed'". You had to find other, more creative ways to destroy a god - like, destroy all their followers.

Myth and legend is the basis for D&D. Somehow it created its own mythology along the way. There are myths and legends of gods being defeated or even killed by mortals directly, sometimes in combat, sometimes in tests of skill. There's no reason D&D should have omnipotent, unassailable gods. PCs can aspire to be heroes of myth and legend; give 'em something to strive towards.