D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[doctorbadwolf]

First it undermines the proposal that any bespoke systems can easily be ported into D&D, but even more importantly it shows that you're looking for D&D-type solutions, which is not compatible with the concept that all bespoke systems can become part of D&D.

I didn’t make that claim.

The only claim I made was that aspects of bespoke games can be borrowed to change the play experience of D&D to make D&D model a different genre, which is true. I didn’t even claim that this is true of “all bespoke games”.

I think perhaps it would be best for you and I to not interact any further on this topic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The fact that Level up is doing exactly what @doctorbadwolf is saying just in lots of areas at the same time... without breaking the system shows that it absolutely can be done.

I totally agree with the premise of the OP. Hacking 5e is easy, simple and straightforward.

Very.

I'd agree with you, if we were talking, say, Fate — something actually flexible and hackable that doesn't come with a bunch of stupid assumptions.

D&D on the other hand is like the opposite of a hackable system.

The folks who have been successfully hacking D&D for decades, and the volume of 3pp material that is literally why I’m describing in this thread, literally disprove your claim.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'd agree with you, if we were talking, say, Fate — something actually flexible and hackable that doesn't come with a bunch of stupid assumptions.

D&D on the other hand is like the opposite of a hackable system.

It is comments akin to this that I think the OP is reacting to.

Familiarity > System.

...

"Because I don't want to." is a valid personal choice.

This post (I'm snipping the most relevant portions) really does seem to answer most of the thread. IMO.

The OP asked, at the end, the following:
So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?

I think that's true for a large number of people in all sorts of endeavors. Talk to someone who is a fan of some sport (as a spectator) and try to convince them that some other sport is "better" to watch. Go on. Give it a shot. Or convince someone who drives an auto transmission CUV/SUV that if they want a real driving experience, they'd get a sport stick shift. Heck, it's hard enough to convince Chad that he shouldn't be using a hammer when there are much better tools ... but hey, Chad has a hammer.

People gravitate toward the familiar. There's nothing wrong with that. Moreover, the issue with these types of conversations often is that it is people talking past each other. Primarily because people like what they like, and are used to the things that they are used to. Truisms are true.

More often than not, there can be undercurrents of elitism, or some type of snide "You're doing it wrong," when it comes to playing D&D. For example, saying that D&D is based on stupid assumptions (as above). But that's not uncommon in many fields; Taylor Swift is going to be popular, and no matter how much you try to convince someone that Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music is a masterpiece that deserves their rapt attention, you're not going to get very far with most people- especially if you're doing it on a thread with Taylor Swift fans.

There are many great TTRPGs out there. But the pull of D&D will always be because of its size, its history, its scope, and its familiarity. You will almost always find it easier to get a group together for D&D, and if you move to a new area, you can almost always find a table playing it.

 

[loverdrive]

The folks who have been successfully hacking D&D for decades, and the volume of 3pp material that is literally why I’m describing in this thread, literally disprove your claim.

Most of that material is utter naughty word. Yeah, mine included.

There's dozens and dozens of moving parts, and every change creates a ripple effect. I just don't understand how anyone can argue with this.

Now compare it with,a again, Fate, where there's nothing to break

 

[dave2008]

I'd agree with you, if we were talking, say, Fate — something actually flexible and hackable that doesn't come with a bunch of stupid assumptions.

D&D on the other hand is like the opposite of a hackable system.

Then why is it so easy to hack?

 

[dave2008]

Now compare it with,a again, Fate, where there's nothing to break

If there is nothing to break - what is the point of playing it

 

[Marc_C]

Sure you can make a car fly! Not the best implementation of a plane...

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Most of that material is utter ****. Yeah, mine included.

There's dozens and dozens of moving parts, and every change creates a ripple effect. I just don't understand how anyone can argue with this.

Now compare it with,a again, Fate, where there's nothing to break

If you truly don't understand the perspectives that other people have, why are you engaging them in conversation? In multiple threads, we see people say things like, "D&D can't do X (such as horror)." And they say that despite the fact that many people will attest in that thread to using D&D to play within the horror genre.

Here, for example, I could explain how this works from my perspective; I constantly change the rules. Of course, it's easy for me to "hack" D&D because I have years of experience. But then again, I am not overly concerned about the "dozens and dozens of moving parts," because I don't need to create perfectly balanced hack that will withstand all the optimizers that the world can throw at it; I just need something that works for my table.

It's the same with almost everything. Yes, by RAW doing things like jettisoning most of the social skills, or inserting your own psionics system, or moving to a completely different Lankhmar-ian spellcasting system that is an amalgamtion of City of Lankhmar (1985), 5e, and homebrew might seem like it breaks stuff. And yet, it works. I wouldn't say that this would work for everyone, but it works for what I, and my table, need it to do right now. And who knows? Maybe we'll change it up again in the future. Plus ca change!

 

[MGibster]

I disagree, but what you want from a CoC game and what we want from a CoC game may be different. I mean Sandy has a whole 5e CoC supplement. Now it wasn't available when I ran a CoC style adventure, but the group definitely felt we captured what we liked about CoC from the 80s.

I hold Cthulhu d20 in high esteem as it's an excellent adaptation with some of the best advice I've seen for new Keepers and Investigators. But adapting the d20 rules for a Call of Cthulhu atmosphere required an awful lot of heavy lifting that I wouldn't want to have to do myself.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Re: Magic Systems.

Want an at-will magic system? What effects are balanced is compared to an amount of damage, using the spell level table in the dmg, and Sneak Attack is at-will damage with the same average damage as a full caster using all their spell slots for direct damage.

Also, all effects are balanced in this way, roughly, with some stuff being level gated or costed in order to make it rare for story reasons rather than a balance reason. So, you start with figuring out the cost of types of effects, in order to understand the balance of magic, and then you compare Spell levels at which non-combat effects are available, and use that comparison to figure out how to level or risk gate a given effect. So, yeah, this methodology does apply to magic that can’t be used in combat.

so you can use that to either level-gate effects by comparing when effects first come available and what spell slot they cost (ie restrained is available out of the gate, and thus is safe for at-will use from level 1, while stunned is not available to anyone before level 5, and that is IIRC only the Monk, so magic should wait a few levels before it can be available), or gate them behind a risk factor cost.

To do this, I would start by looking at critical hits, which double damage Dice, and are thus “worth” a higher spell slot. Conversely, if rolling X makes a bad thing happen, you can cost a desired effect by determining the value of the negative effect and how likely it is to happen. This is harder than level gating or using a resource pool, but it is fully doable.