D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[doctorbadwolf]

The distribution of authority among participants is different

This one caught my eye, because increasing player authority is doable in D&D, by adding some mechanics from other games. I do it quite often, because IMO D&D is more fun that way.

There are limits, but you might be surprised how far you can go with this in 5e without any breaking of the game.

But the point is and has always been, most of this stuff can be added to 5e, so telling someone to play something else when they ask about adding elements to their D&D game is not good advice. It’s only good advice when someone is asking how to do the thing without any reference to a preferred game, or directly asks for a game recommendation.

 

[hawkeyefan]

But the point is and has always been, most of this stuff can be added to 5e, so telling someone to play something else when they ask about adding elements to their D&D game is not good advice.

It actually may be. It depends on the advice and how it’s presented. There are games I’ve played other than D&D that have informed how I play D&D. There are elements from other games that would be suitable for use in D&D.

I would say that for a lot of D&D players and especially DMs, playing and running other games is a great idea.

I agree with you that “You should just play X” isn’t a great response to a question about how to incorporate something into D&D. But not every suggestion to check out or play other games is that thoughtless.

Sometimes it’s great advice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It actually may be. It depends on the advice and how it’s presented. There are games I’ve played other than D&D that have informed how I play D&D. There are elements from other games that would be suitable for use in D&D.

I would say that for a lot of D&D players and especially DMs, playing and running other games is a great idea.

I agree with you that “You should just play X” isn’t a great response to a question about how to incorporate something into D&D. But not every suggestion to check out or play other games is that thoughtless.

Sometimes it’s great advice.

That isn’t the same thing, dude. Come on.

I said that “play this other game instead” is bad advice.

You’re replying as if I said it’s bad advice to suggest someone play other games in general.



Yeah, if I’m asking for advice on running dragon heist as an actual Heist, suggesting I play some heist games to see what makes them tick, and then apply those lessons to dragon heist is perfectly good advice.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That isn’t the same thing, dude. Come on.

I said that “play this other game instead” is bad advice.

You’re replying as if I said it’s bad advice to suggest someone play other games in general.



Yeah, if I’m asking for advice on running dragon heist as an actual Heist, suggesting I play some heist games to see what makes them tick, and then apply those lessons to dragon heist is perfectly good advice.

As I said, it depends on the advice and how it’s given.

 

[Aldarc]

It is a little rude or tactless when it isn't answering the question answered. If the question is "I want to play a game which does X, which system is the best for it" then it's fine to tell them a different game to play, since that's the question. But if the question is "I have a DnD game which is going to have X in it, any suggestions on how to do it?" then responding that they should play a completely different system is a little rude. You've ignored the question and told them to go and play something totally different from what they want to play.

How would you respond to the question "how can I use my screwdriver to put nails in the wall?" Would you not say, "Have you tried using a hammer instead?" Or is that rude to the original question?

I refuse to beleive that you can’t see the difference between a supplement that is literally 5e D&D with some new classes, and a completely different game.

AiME is no D&D "supplement." You likely won't be using the AiME classes alongside the 5e Wizard or other D&D classes. It exists as a stand alone product. Same engine perhaps, but I would also say that Masks and Dungeon World are different games as are Runequest and Call of Cthulhu as well despite having the same underlying engine.

But I think that you are applying an incredibly broad and liberal sense of "D&D" while also applying a bit of a double-standard such that AiME is D&D when it's convenient for your argument but it's not D&D when it's convenient. AiME, IMHO, is a different game than D&D 5e.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As I said, it depends on the advice and how it’s given.

Sure. That is my point.

How would you respond to the question "how can I use my screwdriver to put nails in the wall?" Would you not say, "Have you tried using a hammer instead?" Or is that rude to the original question?

Not an apt comparison.

AiME is no D&D "supplement." You likely won't be using the AiME classes alongside the 5e Wizard or other D&D classes.

The Wizard and full powered healers, no, you’ll notice the power difference. It is mechanically fully compatible though.

It exists as a stand alone product. Same engine perhaps, but I would also say that Masks and Dungeon World are different games as are Runequest and Call of Cthulhu as well despite having the same underlying engine.

And if I was running Dungeon World, and wanted to add genre elements that Masks covers, it would be easier to borrow them from Masks, I assume.
But AIME isn’t a different game. It’s just a setting guide with a suite of classes for that setting and some optional rules to make your dnd 5e game fit the setting better. That’s it.

You can take the journey rules and just use them in a 5e game. You can take its additional skills and just add them to your 5e game. I’ve used both in my Eberron and FR game, and will continue to use Lore and Riddle in any new game I run, because they fit how I run the world. Well, Riddle at least. Lore is harder to get players to keep straight the difference between it and History.

But I think that you are applying an incredibly broad and liberal sense of "D&D" while also applying a bit of a double-standard such that AiME is D&D when it's convenient for your argument but it's not D&D when it's convenient. AiME, IMHO, is a different game than D&D 5e.

I’ve no idea what you’re even talking about, here. AIME is 5e D&D with new classes. They’re maybe slightly underpowered, but probably close enough that you could use it’s classes to replace the Spellcasting classes and it’d play fine alongside. It’ll work better if you use only it’s classes, but you can absolutely use only it’s classes, and then run a low magic game of D&D using the MM for enemies, running the game like a Conan D&D game. Because it’s...the same game. You could give them PHB feats instead of the ones in the book, use PHB races, etc.

Also AIME became part of this discussion because I referenced having suggested using it’s classes instead of the PHB classes to run a low-magic game. Which is absolutely in line with my whole point from post one.

Most of what people ask for advice on adding to their D&D, and people tell them D&D “can’t do well”, can easily be added either by homebrew, mechanics borrowed from other games, or 3pp supplement, to an otherwise normal D&D game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’m still flummoxed by people saying D&D cant do horror.

Do y’all run horror games that take as long as a level 1-20 D&D game does? If not...why would a horror D&D game ever get to high level?

And if you want to do a horror story arc in D&D, you can at nearly any level. Places warded against teleportation, Demi-planes, etc, are common tropes. A facility for magical experimentation with a magebred abomination that turns invisible when it moves more than 10 ft, has an 80ft move, a fear aura, and does a lot of damage when it hits, in a facility they can’t escape without getting to a vehicle on the other side of the facility, with few large rooms and all the long passages have access panels the monster can dart in and out of, can be run to feel pretty much exactly like a horror movie with a similar premise. Oh, and enforce disadvantage in dim light, and make light attract the monster or make light limited because most magical light reacts dangerously with the air of the facility, and the artificial light devices found in the facility are limited.

I would love to run that. Or play in it. Low levels would be great, but level 10-15 would also be very good. So much of the power of the PCs would be subverted or frustrated, which with player buy in will only serve to enhance the feeling of desperation and panic.

And that’s without adding any extra mechanics, like a fear scale that is similar to the exhaustion system, with fear making it harder to act effectively.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not an apt comparison.

It is. If you are in a situation where you need to knock in a nail but you don't have a hammer, then you could use the butt end of a screwdriver, or your shoe, and you might manage to do the job. But it will be a lot easier if you use a tool that is designed for that job.

 

[Hussar]

/snip
But the point is and has always been, most of this stuff can be added to 5e, so telling someone to play something else when they ask about adding elements to their D&D game is not good advice. It’s only good advice when someone is asking how to do the thing without any reference to a preferred game, or directly asks for a game recommendation.

Or, someone has tried doing X in D&D, it failed miserably, and so when you ask how you do X in D&D, they tell you to try a different game so as to learn from their mistakes.

Now, apparently, according to you, you are a god of gaming who can make D&D dance on the head of a pin with no problems and, according to some, with only a single page of rules changes. Bully for you guys. Me? I'm just a mere mortal and when I've tried to do these things in D&D, they have failed miserably. Company scale combat - such as what you see on ships - does not work in 5e, FOR ME. It's slow, ponderous, confusing, far too complicated where it needs to be simple and nowhere near granular enough when it needs to be. Same goes with trying to do low magic.

Apparently, for you folks, it works perfectly and that's fantastic. Congratulations. Well done you. Here's your cookie. But, again, IN MY EXPERIENCE, these things don't work worth a damn in 5e. The 5e ruleset is a terrible ruleset for games like this. For low magic, you have to remove 3/4 of the classes, and about 3/4 of the monsters as well. Which means, that, well, I might as well play another game, because what I've got left sure isn't D&D 5e anymore.

So, getting upset at people for suggesting that you use a different system, when those people have TRIED AND FAILED to do what you are trying to do with 5e and then turning around and berating them for not being able to make 5e do these things is not exactly helping your argument. It comes off as incredibly elitist and close minded. "Oh, you can do anything with 5e! You must never, EVER tell me not to use 5e to do something because 5e can do EVERYTHING and do it BETTER than ANY OTHER SYSTEM."

And you wonder why you are getting push back?

 

[Hussar]

enforce disadvantage in dim light,

Wait... what? Dim light is only disadvantage on perception checks based on sight. And, since this is D&D, your warlock can see in all light, half the PC's have darkvision, making all dim light bright and only that poor human PC has any disadvantage. Never minding that your PC's just teleport/use some sort of magic to skip out of the place. Oh, and let's not forget that turning invisible just means we have disadvantage on our attacks. We know exactly where the invisible creature is and, because the cleric with a 20 Wis and the Observant feat has a passive Perception of 20+, the creature can never hide. You did specify any level right? My reasonably low level current group has a monk with a 20+ passive perception. It's not exactly hard to achieve.

Oh, that's right, you're going to keep adding more and more effects to nerf every single thing the PC's can do until such time as they're basically commoners. Right. Because that's what D&D is all about. I'm quite sure the players will be so overjoyed playing D&D in this environment.

Or, if they wanted to play horror, they could play a system that doesn't require you to strip out 3/4 of the rules, nerf the characters into the ground and basically rewrite every single class from the ground up.