D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[cbwjm]

How would you respond to the question "how can I use my screwdriver to put nails in the wall?" Would you not say, "Have you tried using a hammer instead?" Or is that rude to the original question?

I feel like that is a completely different question so absurd as to not be relevant to the question regarding making something work in DnD.

 

[dave2008]

So yes.....this is saying that D&D is a better option to achieve a genre/feel/vibe than a game built with that specific genre/feel/vibe in mind. It also throws in some kind of "indie" designation when there are plenty of mainstream options that would also fit the bill. And the title of the thread is very telling; it contains the word "versus". This has been framed as a contest.

I don't interpret the part you quoted that way. I think you are bringing your own biases to your interpretation (which we all do of course). Now I could see you conclude: D&D is a better option for a person who asked for advice on modifying D&D to fit a particular genre. That is a qualified "better" in line with the spirit of the OP and thread IMO. Though I personally interrupted the OP even more narrowly as: When I am playing D&D and I want to change the genre it is more helpful to get advice on how to do that in D&D instead of advice to switch systems. The OP even used their Eberron game as an example. They are playing D&D. Advice to switch systems mid stream because one thinks D&D can't handle a genre is not useful in that context. That is the point of the thread in my OP.

I mean the person who wrote the post as repeatedly said that was not their intent (D&D iss better at a particular genre than a game designed for the genre). So even if that is how your interpreted the OP, the author has told you that is not what they meant. Why do you feel the need to continue trying to tell the author the meant something different?

 

[dave2008]

I agree with you that “You should just play X” isn’t a great response to a question about how to incorporate something into D&D. But not every suggestion to check out or play other games is that thoughtless.

Sure, but I would assume the OP is upset by the thoughtless advice (which I too have seen on this forum a lot), rather than thoughtful advice.

 

[dave2008]

How would you respond to the question "how can I use my screwdriver to put nails in the wall?" Would you not say, "Have you tried using a hammer instead?" Or is that rude to the original question?

That is not at all what is being described in the OP or this thread in general. Perhaps someone has suggested something so ridiculous and I missed it, but that it not the point of the OP or this thread.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Advice to switch systems mid stream because one thinks D&D can't handle a genre is not useful in that context.

Has this ever actually happened to any meaningful degree?

This seems to be a made-up example, to me. I've read forums for a very long time, and I cannot think of a single time someone was running D&D, wanted to do some specific genre thing, and was told to run a different TT RPG entirely. I'm sure it's happened - the internet is full of idiocy. There's nothing so dumb it hasn't happened.

But happened to a meaningful degree? No. I've not seen that, and I don't believe you have either. I strongly suspect more words have been dedicated to this issue in this thread than have ever been typed suggesting people "change systems mid-stream". So essentially you're making Mount Everest out of a pea under a napkin.

Almost all "use system X" suggestions are in answer to "I'm thinking of running a campaign about Y". And the OP appears to be complaining about those too.

There are games I’ve played other than D&D that have informed how I play D&D. There are elements from other games that would be suitable for use in D&D.

I would say that for a lot of D&D players and especially DMs, playing and running other games is a great idea.

Yup.

And this is an actual problem, unlike the pea-in-the-bed stuff being complained about at ridiculous length. A lot of D&D DMs are terrified, completely irrationally, of other RPGs, and very reluctant to play them or suggest that a group try them, which means it's very hard for them to learn from them, and generally means D&D gets used for stuff where a group would genuinely have a better time with a different RPG (esp. in the longer-term). It also means that when rules/genre stuff are taken from other games into D&D, it is sometimes from a position of relative ignorance, which can be unhelpful. I've even seen people condemn other games on the basis that they played a version of D&D with rules "imported" from that that game, and it didn't work very well lol! I've seen that happen multiple times, which is literally infinity more times than I've seen someone told "Stop running your D&D campaign, go remake your characters in Heroquest, and play that instead!" or something.

 

[Aldarc]

I’m still flummoxed by people saying D&D cant do horror.

Would you be equally upset if I said "Fate can't do horror" or "Fate can't do D&D-esque fantasy adventure"? Or is that flummoxed ire only reserved for when that "bespoke" system is 5e D&D?

I asked you before, and I will ask it again:

So when is suggesting that a person or group would be better off playing another game NOT hollow advice? What and where are the limits of hacking a given system, whether that's D&D or some other "bespoke game"?

I feel like that is a completely different question so absurd as to not be relevant to the question regarding making something work in DnD.

It's ultimately a question of the tools for the job and of form and function. I'm a "system matters" kind of guy.

And if I was running Dungeon World, and wanted to add genre elements that Masks covers, it would be easier to borrow them from Masks, I assume.

Remind me again how that saying goes? "Never assume because when you do..."

But AIME isn’t a different game. It’s just a setting guide with a suite of classes for that setting and some optional rules to make your dnd 5e game fit the setting better. That’s it.

Except it's not D&D 5e. It's a different game that uses the 5e Engine. When people say "How can I do this in D&D?" they are also not generally asking for AiME. You said as much yourself earlier.

You can take the journey rules and just use them in a 5e game. You can take its additional skills and just add them to your 5e game. I’ve used both in my Eberron and FR game, and will continue to use Lore and Riddle in any new game I run, because they fit how I run the world. Well, Riddle at least. Lore is harder to get players to keep straight the difference between it and History.

I can also take rules from Black Hack and port them into my 5e game too, such as its ammo rules. I can also use its random charts. I can also use class-based damage dice. So what? Does this make Black Hack just another game of 5e D&D too?

I’ve no idea what you’re even talking about, here. AIME is 5e D&D with new classes. They’re maybe slightly underpowered, but probably close enough that you could use it’s classes to replace the Spellcasting classes and it’d play fine alongside. It’ll work better if you use only it’s classes, but you can absolutely use only it’s classes, and then run a low magic game of D&D using the MM for enemies, running the game like a Conan D&D game. Because it’s...the same game. You could give them PHB feats instead of the ones in the book, use PHB races, etc.

I think that you are conflating D&D 5e with its engine. There is a reason, for example, that we distinguish between Apocalypse World and the Powered by the Apocalypse game engine or system. This has led to a recurring problem in this thread regarding the argument about what D&D 5e can or can't do. Pointing to AiME to argue that "5e D&D can do low magic" equivocates between the 5e Engine and D&D 5e.

That is not at all what is being described in the OP or this thread in general. Perhaps someone has suggested something so ridiculous and I missed it, but that it not the point of the OP or this thread.

I disagree, dave. You may call it absurd, but I'm not the only person who has picked up on how this idea seems very much present in the thread.

The 5e ruleset is a terrible ruleset for games like this. For low magic, you have to remove 3/4 of the classes, and about 3/4 of the monsters as well. Which means, that, well, I might as well play another game, because what I've got left sure isn't D&D 5e anymore.

Apparently we are all supposed to ignore six plus years of threads of people complaining about the ubiquity of magic in 5e classes and people's frustrations of trying to use 5e to run low magic campaigns.

I think that the 5e Engine is a good system, but I feel that saying that 5e can do everything requires me to pretend that the publishing world wasn't operating under a similar delusion during the 3e d20 era. 5e's engine, though improved, is not so far removed from the 3e era's d20 system to be able to magically handwave the problems publishers encountered when trying to make everything use the d20 system. So regardless of what genres I think that D&D 5e can and can't handle, I feel obligated to reserve a strong dose of accumulated skepticism about any claims that 5e D&D can do everything. Even if a Swiss Army Knife can do many things adequately, I still don't think it will be equipped with all the right tools for every job.

 

[dave2008]

It is. If you are in a situation where you need to knock in a nail but you don't have a hammer, then you could use the butt end of a screwdriver, or your shoe, and you might manage to do the job. But it will be a lot easier if you use a tool that is designed for that job.

The analogy is oversimplified. A better analogy would be:

I am using a 20 oz hammer to put nails in a wall. I am used the hammer, it is comfortable and it allows me to frame a lot of walls quickly and efficiently. However, while building this house I come to a beam of engineered lumber that is particularly tough. A heavier 32 oz hammer might be better to drive nails into it, but what I have on hand is my trusty old 20 oz hammer. It is better, IMO, to swing a bit harder (or more) to drive in a few nails on this beam than drive to the hardware store and buy a new hammer. Particularly when the 20 oz hammer works better for me on the rest of the framing.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The analogy is oversimplified. A better analogy would be:

I am using a 20 oz hammer to put nails in a wall. I am used the hammer, it is comfortable and it allows me to frame a lot of walls quickly and efficiently. However, while building this house I come to a beam of engineered lumber that is particularly tough. A heavier 32 oz hammer might be better to drive nails into it, but what I have on hand is my trusty old 20 oz hammer. It is better, IMO, to swing a bit harder (or more) to drive in a few nails on this beam than drive to the hardware store and buy a new hammer. Particularly when the 20 oz hammer works better for me on the rest of the framing.

That's a different analogy, not a better one. That you're claiming its "better" calls into question your comprehension of the initial analogy.

 

[dave2008]

Has this ever actually happened to any meaningful degree?

I could be biased, but I see it suggest on these forums frequently. Perhaps the suggested just read quickly (or perhaps I did) and didn't realize someone was already playing D&D, but I have seen the suggestion multiple times. I personally don't even think it is a particular helpful suggestion if someone is planning to play D&D and specifically asks for advice to modify D&D. But I know others disagree.

So does it happen to a meaningful degree? I would say yes. Almost every time I see someone ask for advice about modifying D&D to fit a different genre someone suggests playing a different game because "D&D doesn't do that genre well." I mean just jump over to some of the recent Ravenloft threads and you will see this.

Now whether or not I* am in the middle of playing a D&D game or not when I see such advice directed to me probably gets lost in the context of continually getting bashed over the head (exaggerating a bit for effect) with calls to change to a different game from the one I want and like to play!

*I am using first person for effect, I don't recall if this has specifically happened to me.

 

[dave2008]

That's a different analogy, not a better one. That you're claiming its "better" calls into question your comprehension of the initial analogy.

It is better, which calls into your comprehension of the initial analogy. The initial analogy takes no ownership of the fact that I have been using the correct tool for the job and then decided to do a slightly different job.

However, I will give another one that is closer to the original that I also think is better.

I am hammering away putting nails in a wall. Then I need to put a screw into the wall. So I borrow a screw driver, install the screw and then continue on putting nails in the wall.

That is probably closet to the OP.