D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[doctorbadwolf]

So much so that a recommendation of “maybe you should play Blades in the Dark or Dusk City Outlaws” is a very valid recommendation.

So, just to be clear, I agree. However, if the asker specified already their intention to try and play D&D with criminals doing crime jobs, then context and tone becomes even more important. If I come in and tell them flatly that it’s a bad idea and D&D sucks at doing anything but D&D (a common refrain, last couple years), I’m being a bit of a donk. If I explain what I like about Blades for running a gang of thieves game, and point out that Blades is even a fantasy crime game, and/or explain why I don’t think D&D is good what they’re trying to do, I’ve given them useful information, and avoiding coming across like I think I know better than them.

 

[hawkeyefan]

So, just to be clear, I agree. However, if the asker specified already their intention to try and play D&D with criminals doing crime jobs, then context and tone becomes even more important. If I come in and tell them flatly that it’s a bad idea and D&D sucks at doing anything but D&D (a common refrain, last couple years), I’m being a bit of a donk. If I explain what I like about Blades for running a gang of thieves game, and point out that Blades is even a fantasy crime game, and/or explain why I don’t think D&D is good what they’re trying to do, I’ve given them useful information, and avoiding coming across like I think I know better than them.

Yes. I think it’s all about how suggestions are made. I mean, this is pretty much just basic etiquette more than anything to do with gaming specifically.

Sadly, this is the internet...which doesn’t exactly do wonders for folks’ etiquette.

 

[Ovinomancer]

OK, thank you for responding. However, this doesn't really tell me anything other than I need to read Blades in the Dark more closely

Heist are fundamental to Blades the way combat is fundamental to D&D. How would you succinctly describe in a forum post exactly how well D&D supports combat?

 

[dave2008]

Heist are fundamental to Blades the way combat is fundamental to D&D. How would you succinctly describe in a forum post exactly how well D&D supports combat?

I wasn't expecting you to if it is so intrinsic to the game. I was just commenting. And reading Blades in the Dark is a valid response!

FYI, @Campbell disagreed with your assessment just a few posts later.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I wasn't expecting you to if it is so intrinsic to the game. I was just commenting. And reading Blades in the Dark is a valid response!

FYI, @Campbell disagreed with your assessment just a few posts later.

The game calls them Scores. A Score is a job. It can be a heist, certainly....especially for a crew of Shadows, who are thieves....but the game’s not limited to heists. There can be assaults or assassinations or cons or smuggling or any kind of job, really.

I think there’s a lot of overlap with a heist and other types of Scores....deception, stealth, skullduggery and the like.

So I think the comparison still kind of stands to D&D and combat. I touched on this myself.

I think video games may be a good example. Take your average first person shooter....Borderlands, Call of Duty, Overwatch.....it’s mostly combat. Then take a game like Ghost Recon, Sniper, or Dishonored....it’s about infiltration and stealth.

The games are designed to deliver the experience they deliver.

Tabletop RPGs have more flexibility, so it’s not like playing Overwatch and trying to sneak past the other team (which doesn’t make any sense)...so you can have stealth based scenarios in D&D here and there. Or other genres like horror or what have you.

But the more persistently you want those other elements to be a part, the more you start to move away from D&D and what it’s good at.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I wasn't expecting you to if it is so intrinsic to the game. I was just commenting. And reading Blades in the Dark is a valid response!

FYI, @Campbell disagreed with your assessment just a few posts later.

I don't really think he did. We we're speaking specifically, and he expanded the range. Nithing really contradictory.

 

[Aldarc]

Fussy point, perhaps, but something not working in 5e doesn't mean it doesn't work in D&D. There's numerous other editions...

Plus, there are also a number of fantasy heartbreakers.

This is also a sticking point I have. There are several contentions that occasionally get conflated together as a singular argument that's part of the implied "just play D&D":
(i) The suitability of 5e Dungeons & Dragons.
(ii) The suitability of the 5e Engine: e.g., AiME, etc.
(iii) The suitability of D&D as a whole: e.g., B/X, AD&D, 2E, 3E, 4E, etc.
(iv) The suitability of other D&D-based fantasy heartbreakers.

At times, the argument of the various participants can shift or equivocate between these points depending on how one understands or distinguishes (or not) between these points.

Heh, I remember getting into this about Planescape. To me, Planescape is a fantastic setting that is totally unsuited to D&D. I would LOVE to play Planescape using something like FATE. And, before people start jumping up and down on me for this, I have 3 reasons why I think something like FATE (there are other games that would work too) is a better fit:

It depends on the sort of Planescape game you want to play. Fate could work. If one wanted to emphasize the character's various affiliations with the guilds or other setting flavor elements, one could play Cortex Prime. If a group wanted to emphasize being part of a crew in the city of Sigil working for the guilds, then one could potentially use Forged in the Dark. In fact there is such a hack called Sig.

 

[loverdrive]

Converting characters, npcs, and monsters, as well has learning the rules for multiple different systems doesn't seem worth the investment.

Oh, yeah, that is a very stupid idea.

What I suggest is to run a couple of different campaigns with a different cast of characters, that reference and influence the events of other campaigns.

Say, in campaign 1, where the party found some ancient golden chalice in the dungeon and sold it, people in the city started to disappear! And now in campaign 2 we get to play as detectives investigating these mysterious disappearances, question our old PCs, maybe spy on some cultists, uncover the relationships between the unassuming golden chalice and the Drowning God...

Then, why not continue campaign 1, where the brave adventures now have to deal with the mess they've created before with some new context?

However, I am curious what is the support for heists that Blades in the Dark offers? I looked at Blades in the Dark recently and I don't remember anything in particular.

Now, I think the PF2e VP system could be used to support a heist scenario as could a skill challenge system in 5e, though I would probable mod the VP system which I think is conceptually better.

Blades offer a unique kind of heists, where the characters are competent and their plans are brilliant. Something like:

The GM: You hear heavy footsteps, at least a dozen pairs of boots. You hear a telltale whistle, the camera shows us the outside of the building... Bluecoats are swarming the place!
The Spider: Wait. Flashback. INT. CAPTAIN GILES'S OFFICE - TIME UNKNOWN. Captain Giles is sitting at his table, a briefcase full of silver in front of him -- there's an equivalent of 4 coins. A moment later, the door opens and Sagida enters. "I hope you like my gift, captain", -- she says. Is 4 coins enough of leverage to SWAY him?
The GM: Sure. What do you want from him?
The Spider: Oh, that's simple. I want his boys to raid the lampblacks HQ, while, uhm, "fail to notice" my boys.
The GM: Sounds reasonable. Sounds Risky/Standard. We already know that Giles is one corrupt and greedy piece of naughty word, so he'll agree anyway -- but maybe he'll ask for more?

In pretty much any other system, police showing up would be something bad that the players would need to somehow deal with. In Blades it can easily be turned into "just another part of the plan", to highlight how damn heisenbergian smart and calculating the PCs are.

 

[pemerton]

I think if you treat D&D as a norm or baseline, then it's going to follow pretty straightforwardly that it's hard to justify a serious departure from it.

But exactly the same would be true if Burning Wheel was my baseline game. Or Prince Valiant.

 

[Lanefan]

What I suggest is to run a couple of different campaigns with a different cast of characters, that reference and influence the events of other campaigns.

Say, in campaign 1, where the party found some ancient golden chalice in the dungeon and sold it, people in the city started to disappear! And now in campaign 2 we get to play as detectives investigating these mysterious disappearances, question our old PCs, maybe spy on some cultists, uncover the relationships between the unassuming golden chalice and the Drowning God...

Then, why not continue campaign 1, where the brave adventures now have to deal with the mess they've created before with some new context?

Though I see what you're getting at here and in pronciple think it's a good idea; the problem I'd have with it is that if those campaigns were run in the same setting - let's say, a city - but using completely different rulesets, the underlying physics of the setting as defined by the rules would quickly become a bit of a mess. For example, in campaign 1 let's say some events happen that tell us players some things about the city and how things work there (e.g. selling the chalice tells us there's a cash market for antiquities and-or magic items); then in campaign 2 we quite reasonably assume those things will still work the same way because, after all, we're in the same city - and then they don't (e.g. there's now no such thing as a cash market for items like that).

Or the campaign 1 PCs we meet and question during campaign 2 are of/have races-classes-skillsets-abilities that campaign 2 simply doesn't support (and vice-versa), begging the question why not, in either direction.

This sort of inconsistency makes a setting - and thus the attached campaign(s) - completely non-believable for me.