The getting exp from killing issue is ridiculously easy to solve. Give the PC's as much (or even slightly more) exp from using skills and smart thinking to resolve encounters as they would get for defeating the encounter in combat. If they sneak or talk their way past the troll, give them the same exp as if they had killed the troll. Give them 10% more if you want to encourage this kind of behavior. This is already built into the game where traps are concerned. PC's already get full exp for traps wheter they bypass them or blunder through them and survive. It's really that simple.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
D&D deserves a better XP system
- Thread starter Aethelstan
- Start date
Aethelstan
First Post
No, I do not "admit I was trolling." Trying to get a discussion going (my purpose) is a lot different than attempting to ignite a flame war (i.e. "bards are for losers!"). If you have read all my posts on this thread, I am at a loss to understand how you could accuse me of trolling
Your reply was a smack down, as you intended. I asked, calmly and politely, for a measure of respect and I get branded a troll. If putting forth a dissenting opinion about D&D rules is "trolling," then what exactly is the point of these boards? I guess if one doesn't conform to the orthodoxy as defined by other posters, then you are a heretic who must be banished. Likewise, if my posts are trolling then this board is a den of trolls because I've seen posters disagreeing with each other on thread after thread.
Your reply was a smack down, as you intended. I asked, calmly and politely, for a measure of respect and I get branded a troll. If putting forth a dissenting opinion about D&D rules is "trolling," then what exactly is the point of these boards? I guess if one doesn't conform to the orthodoxy as defined by other posters, then you are a heretic who must be banished. Likewise, if my posts are trolling then this board is a den of trolls because I've seen posters disagreeing with each other on thread after thread.
Deadguy
First Post
I think people have been a little unfair to Aethelstan in this. He has set out his stall and argued it, rather than setting of a fire and waltzing away.
I can only suggest though Aeth that whilst you may feel that a 'slightly ranty' opener inspires debate it can also rile people. A more neutral statement of your position will still generate debate here, honest!
I can only suggest though Aeth that whilst you may feel that a 'slightly ranty' opener inspires debate it can also rile people. A more neutral statement of your position will still generate debate here, honest!
Wow, I've never felt the need to use the "Report this Post to a Moderator" link around here... until I read Geoff Watson's post above. I didn't, but... Switch to decaf, man.
Aethelstan: Ignore him. If you like, you can even click on the "Profile" button on his posts, then find the "Add X to Your Ignore List" link.
Aethelstan: Ignore him. If you like, you can even click on the "Profile" button on his posts, then find the "Add X to Your Ignore List" link.
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
And let's keep it civil, gentlemen.
I can't recall the last time accusations of trolling actually improved the value of a thread. Give it a rest, hmm?
-Hyp.
(Moderator)
I can't recall the last time accusations of trolling actually improved the value of a thread. Give it a rest, hmm?
-Hyp.
(Moderator)
the Jester
Legend
I'll just add another call for calm. I think Aethelstan is asking some interesting questions and bringing up interesting points. Though I do think the core rules provide for rp xp and such, I also agree that such rules are an afterthought.
Here's what I do:
I give half the standard xp for overcoming challenges.
Then I give xp equal to 25xcharacter level to each pc in each of several categories if they've earned them- roleplaying their race, class, alignment and personal concerns; props; and 'lubricating' the game (i.e. helping take notes, going out of your way to help someone else get to the game at great personal inconvenience, etc.)
The way I determine whether someone's earned rp xp in a given category is to ask them. Generally, they'll tell me what they did to rp each category; it's rare that a pc misses a category. I'm pretty flexible with the awards, and my intent is to award each pc each category almost every game.
My system tends to slow advancement a tad, but that's part of the point. It also allows for leveling in completely combat-less games.
Here's what I do:
I give half the standard xp for overcoming challenges.
Then I give xp equal to 25xcharacter level to each pc in each of several categories if they've earned them- roleplaying their race, class, alignment and personal concerns; props; and 'lubricating' the game (i.e. helping take notes, going out of your way to help someone else get to the game at great personal inconvenience, etc.)
The way I determine whether someone's earned rp xp in a given category is to ask them. Generally, they'll tell me what they did to rp each category; it's rare that a pc misses a category. I'm pretty flexible with the awards, and my intent is to award each pc each category almost every game.
My system tends to slow advancement a tad, but that's part of the point. It also allows for leveling in completely combat-less games.
Psion
Adventurer
Gonna sidestep the intervening posts and put in my 2 cents.
Note that I actually DON'T use the CR method for XP*, but FWIW:
Alternate scenario:
DM: Okay guys, you actually tried to fight the beholder bard and failed -- like I didn't give you enough clues that he was to be negotiated with! So no points there. Good job with overcoming the half-troll guards and escaping imprisonment. Too bad that they were several EL's below you, and had you not fought the beholder, you would have been fighting the real opposition which was worth much more for your level. Oh, and the goblin rogue -- had you bluffed him with some good roleplay, you might have reached the goal of getting information from him as was also stated in the adventure hook. But no, you had to attack him and made him flee. Too bad, I figured that if you played your cards right and did some roleplaying, payed attention, and used your brains, you would have been halfway through the next scenario and had twice as much XP.
So as long as we are conjuring up scenarios, notice how, using no options whatsover, clever play and good roleplaying can be rewarded, because if you read the fine print that actually TALKS about those tables, they are more about overcoming obsticles than necessarily killing them.
The XP system does not just award for killing. Read the minotaur example; it's like one of the first few paragraphs of the STANDARD D&D XP rules (not optional mind you.)
And why is it necessary that the default rules appeal to your exact preferences? One game cannot please everyone. The entire purpose of options is to tune it to your taste.
* - For those interested, the reasons why have to do with the fact that I think a game's challenges are more than creatures and traps, and I don't find you get much of a payoff for the complexity of XP calculation, so I go for a simplified method derived from the time period option in the DMG.
Note that I actually DON'T use the CR method for XP*, but FWIW:
Alternate scenario:
DM: Okay guys, you actually tried to fight the beholder bard and failed -- like I didn't give you enough clues that he was to be negotiated with! So no points there. Good job with overcoming the half-troll guards and escaping imprisonment. Too bad that they were several EL's below you, and had you not fought the beholder, you would have been fighting the real opposition which was worth much more for your level. Oh, and the goblin rogue -- had you bluffed him with some good roleplay, you might have reached the goal of getting information from him as was also stated in the adventure hook. But no, you had to attack him and made him flee. Too bad, I figured that if you played your cards right and did some roleplaying, payed attention, and used your brains, you would have been halfway through the next scenario and had twice as much XP.
So as long as we are conjuring up scenarios, notice how, using no options whatsover, clever play and good roleplaying can be rewarded, because if you read the fine print that actually TALKS about those tables, they are more about overcoming obsticles than necessarily killing them.
The XP system does not just award for killing. Read the minotaur example; it's like one of the first few paragraphs of the STANDARD D&D XP rules (not optional mind you.)
And why is it necessary that the default rules appeal to your exact preferences? One game cannot please everyone. The entire purpose of options is to tune it to your taste.
* - For those interested, the reasons why have to do with the fact that I think a game's challenges are more than creatures and traps, and I don't find you get much of a payoff for the complexity of XP calculation, so I go for a simplified method derived from the time period option in the DMG.
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Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Psion said:
Out of interest (and since I don't have any books with me at present), what does this look like, how does your derived method work out?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
As an additional observation, haven't all of the post D&D d20 games by WotC used an alternative to the CR table for sorting out xps? d20 Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthuluh, Modern?
I think Star Wars and Wheel of Time use "challenge codes" which seemed a bit on the nebulous side (I've not looked recently). Call of Cthulhu is particularly interesting though - the quick and dirty method (gain a level every two adventures) or the more detailed one where the GM decides on a set of "story goals", each of which contains at least a verb and a noun. some of the most common verbs are discover, recover, find, destroy, subdue, save, rescue, oppose, stop and survive(!). A typical 4 hour session should have 4-6 story goals. At the end of the adventure each story goal accomplished is worth 300xp * level / no. of characters involved. This means that you would gain a level for each 13 story goals accomplished.
That works particularly well in Call of Cthulhu where hopefully you'll not be doing much fighting at all (!), but it could be used to craft interesting D&D adventures and have a codified method of handling xp for those adventures.
Cheers
I think Star Wars and Wheel of Time use "challenge codes" which seemed a bit on the nebulous side (I've not looked recently). Call of Cthulhu is particularly interesting though - the quick and dirty method (gain a level every two adventures) or the more detailed one where the GM decides on a set of "story goals", each of which contains at least a verb and a noun. some of the most common verbs are discover, recover, find, destroy, subdue, save, rescue, oppose, stop and survive(!). A typical 4 hour session should have 4-6 story goals. At the end of the adventure each story goal accomplished is worth 300xp * level / no. of characters involved. This means that you would gain a level for each 13 story goals accomplished.
That works particularly well in Call of Cthulhu where hopefully you'll not be doing much fighting at all (!), but it could be used to craft interesting D&D adventures and have a codified method of handling xp for those adventures.
Cheers
Geoff Watson
First Post
Psion said:
Translation: You didn't read my mind, so sucked in!
You only need one offensive character to screw up a negotiation, and unless the clues are really obvious, one of the players might miss it. And clues/puzzles seem simple when you already know the answer.
Geoff.
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