D&D Economics

[Archade]

So, in a discussion that involved the Leadership feat, an attempt to use followers to run a shipping cartel on the side, the DMG2 business rules, and the equipment list from the PHB, one of my players and I engaged in a debate that the economy of D&D is broken.

He's right to some degree, of course. However, I was challenged by the discussion, and have looked at the matter further. First things first, the business rules in the DMG2 are a great idea (one business check per month, some chance of events, etc) but don't work. A 3rd level commoner can't run a farm at anything but a loss. But I digress...

ASSUMPTION #1 - An unskilled worker makes 1 sp per day. That's a fine place to start. Drogo the dock worker will never be able to buy a sword, a potion of cure light wounds, or anything other than subsist day-to-day. I'm fine with this.

ASSUMPTION #2 - A skilled worker makes 1 gp per day. Also fine. Aldo the apothecary might be able to afford some more exotic things in the world if he saves his money, and he's seen gold coins in his day.

WORKING RULE - The first thing I looked at was the Perform skill. On the surface, it looks fine. Someone who can make a DC15 Perform check can earn 5sp per day. OK, fine. Someone who can make a DC20 Perform check can earn 1.65 gp per day. Also fine. Finally, someone who can roll a DC 25 Perform check can earn 3.5 gp per day. So, this is reasonably in line with ASSUMPTION #1 and #2.

BROKEN RULE - The Craft rules were my next place to visit. Holy cow, is it broken! It says that someone with the Craft skill can earn half their check result in gp per week. So, a 1st level character with 4 ranks in Craft (basketweaving), a +2 in their stat modifier, Skill Focus (craft basketweaving), and Masterwork Tools can easily get +11 on their skill check, so they can earn 11 gp per week or just under 2gp per day.
First, that's high compared to the assumptions above -- this is a first level character with no special advantages. A 10th level character can get a +22, or earn 16 gp per week, or 2+ gp per day. Not every impressive for a 10th level character, who should be pretty remarkable, is it?
Secondly, it makes no difference whether you are a basketweaver, an alchemist, or a dog trainer - you all make the same amount. That ain't right. Now, the DMG2 does touch on the idea of certain professions being low-risk, medium-risk, and high-risk. That's a good start.

FIX #1 - The Craft and Profession skills need a small tweak in my house rules, as below.

Low-Risk professions and crafts (cooks, porters, animal handlers, teamsters, farmers, guards, etc) can make a DC15 check to earn their check modifier in gp per month. So a 1st level farmhand with a +12 can earn 12 gp per month (or 4 sp per day). Reasonable. And a 5th level farmhand with a +18 can earn 18 gp per month (or 6 sp per day).

Medium-Risk professions and crafts (smiths, masons, clerks, scribes, etc) can make a DC 20 check to earn 2x their check modifier in gp per month. So a 1st level scribe with a +12 can earn 24gp per month (or 8 sp per day). A 5th level scribe can earn 36 gp per month (or 1.2 gp per day). Again, this is reasonable.

High-Risk professions and crafts (alchemists, barristers, shipwrights, sages, etc) can make a DC 25 check to earn 4x their check modifier in gp per month. So a 1st level alchemist with +12 in Craft (alchemy) can't earn anything, but a 5th level alchemist with a +18 could earn 72 gp per month (or 2.4 gp per day).

That's the first fix ... comments/questions? I'm looking for input on fixing the economics of the game through small tweaks, not a rant thread, please ...

 

[Archade]

Oh, to follow up my argument above, here's my attempt to 'break' my house rule.

Baldo Gutbarrel is the finest barrister in the city. He's a 10th level expert with 13 ranks in Profession (barrister). The DM even rules that his 5 ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive give him two synergy bonuses in his profession. He took Skill Focus in his profession. He's spent his money to buy a 2,500 gp Robe of the Barrister, which grants a +5 bonus to his Profession skill. He also has a Periapt of Wisdom +2 for 4,000 gp that improves his Wisdom to 20.

So, Baldo has a total Profession (barrister) modifier of +30. He can earn 120 gp per month, or 4 gp per day.

Does this seem a bit low for someone so amazing? Or is 120 gp per month good for someone of his stature?

 

[Celebrim]

Yes, they are broken and always have been. I'm at work, so I can't give you a full discussion, but you cannot cannot cannot use the D&D price guides as a basis for an economic model.

 

[Celebrim]

Does this seem a bit low for someone so amazing? Or is 120 gp per month good for someone of his stature?

That depends on what a gp is worth, and D&D has never had a consistant measurement.

If 1sp/day is minimum wage, then the above barrister is making about $60,000 a month. That's a pretty good salary.

But if 1gp/day is minimum wage, then he's making about $6,000 a month, which is good but hardly the upper class society member you'd expect him to be.

 

[Archade]

It's funny .. the D&D price guides may be removed by a few generations, but the original AD&D equipment list prices was based in part on medieval prices for goods and services. Games that have more directly drawn on medieval economics (HarnMaster) are not that far off of D&D.

For example, in HM, a average journeyman craftsman makes 30d per month (30 sp, or 3 gp). A broadsword costs 155d (15 gp), and a chain hauberk costs 750d (75 gp).

The place D&D breaks down is magic items and high level characters, gp limits on towns, and such. Having a non-barter economy doesn't hurt my brain (although an instant gratification economy does -- want a +5 holy avenger? 10 minutes to the market -- ugh!!). I'm not even going there yet. I want to look at incomes and cost of living stuff. Starting with craft and profession.

 

[Celebrim]

It's funny .. the D&D price guides may be removed by a few generations, but the original AD&D equipment list prices was based in part on medieval prices for goods and services.

It's the 'in part' that gets you really screwed up. If you read the description of the price guide in the 1st edition PH, you'll see Gygax justifies the prices with the assumption that the players will always be purchasing items in a region roughly akin to the Klondike during the gold rush. Gygax is choosing prices for reasons that he considers important to game balance, and one of his major goals is making sure that the player's can't do more with thier wealth than intended.

On the other hand, the prices for low to medium skilled laborers in the 1st edition DMG are based off medieval records. As are the prices of 'non-adventuring' goods.

By 3rd edition, the situation is even worse. Items are expressly priced according to how the price effects game balance, the cost of a buckler as opposed to a target being one of the prime examples. And craft and profession just don't work as advertised. The assumption being I think that you won't care because they'll never be used.

Games that have more directly drawn on medieval economics (HarnMaster) are not that far off of D&D.

For example, in HM, a average journeyman craftsman makes 30d per month (30 sp, or 3 gp). A broadsword costs 155d (15 gp), and a chain hauberk costs 750d (75 gp).

Note that the historical exchange of silver to gold is 20:1, not 10:1. This is true right up to the 19th century. In US currency, the 'silver dollar' is accompanied by a 'gold eagle' that is worth 20 dollars.

But I'm fairly sure that the Harn numbers are wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that they either were taken originally from D&D, or else mixed and matched the same sources from different historical eras in the same way Gygax did.

My loose rules are, D&D players have about 20 times too much money (go to a silver standard for treasure and starting wealth), the cost of most game items except for the extremely cheap and extremely expensive stuff is about 3 times too high, and gems and jewelry are overvalued by a factor of about 50 (probably for gamist reasons).

Journeyman craftsman should be making about 3 sp a day. Masters should be making 5 sp+. Unskilled labor is making about 1 sp a day. Most everyone is paying about 30% of thier income in taxes, and this should certainly include the PCs.

Although the craft and profession skills are broken in all sorts of ways, at the very least, change the results from the gold peice standard to the silver peice standard. That way, unskilled labors cost relative to skilled labor makes some sort of sense.

The place D&D breaks down is magic items and high level characters, gp limits on towns, and such. Having a non-barter economy doesn't hurt my brain (although an instant gratification economy does -- want a +5 holy avenger? 10 minutes to the market -- ugh!!). I'm not even going there yet. I want to look at incomes and cost of living stuff. Starting with craft and profession.

It doesn't just break down there. For me, I've seen the biggest breakdowns in the ability of PC's using the 'PC wealth scale' (gold peices) to leverage labor (which tends to use the NPC wealth scale of silver peices unless they are something directly enabling like an alchemist that Gygax is trying to keep up out of easy PC control).

 

[Sigurd]

You can't fix D&D economics.

The world has arbitrary "big rock candy mountain" magic with no real costs to world resources and no way of reasoning supply and demand.

The best solution is to be just as arbitrary:

The DM says we make %20 on our investment if he thinks we were smart and we roll over %50. Anyone rolling under %50 makes %10 less on their investment and must repeat.
Anyone rolling over %90 gets an extra %10 and may repeat their roll.
Anyone under %10 looses %10 of their base investment and must repeat their roll.

Thats my solution if I put on my DM hat.

I like that.... I hereby release it under the GPL Document License.

A response to your question and my poor pathetic gift to humanity all rolled into one .


Sigurd

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm not thrilled with trying to shoe-horn the craft skills into the business rules low/medium/high risk boxes. For one thing, the skill levels don't really have anything to do with risk level - if you're a sage, you're not risking much, but you probably can make some money. I'd call it low-demand, medium-demand, and high-demand - or even better, set a modifier to the Craft check based on the amount of wealth that someone should be making - either by multiplying the result by a percentage - Cooks make 50% of Craft result, Sages make 150%, etc (I'm pulling these number out of an unmentionable place, just to be clear) or by applying a modifier to the result )Cooks get a -5 for purposes of salary, Sages get a +5, etc). Journeymen might make 75% (or get a -2 to their result)of what a full Guild member does, and a Master Craftsman might make 125% (or get a +2).

As Celebrim points out, getting into the actual price lists will just make your head hurt, and I'd avoid it. I don't personally mind the idea of the 10th level character making 22 gp a week. The Craft/Profession rules don't cover things like Merchant Princes well - technically you could say that's Profession:Merchant, but you won't end up with sensible income levels. That's where you need to bring in the DMG2 business rules, which I like but have not really examined closely. That 10th level Merchant should really be opening up his own business under those rules.

Which brings up something not often mentioned - clearly PC's have total control over where they put their skill points, but I don't feel that NPC's should have equal consideration. Guilds existed to prop up wages in times past, and they'd serve the same cause here - only those accepted into apprenticeships should be able to get access to making salaries according to the Craft/profession rules.

So you have these stratifications of classes in the non-adventuring, non-noble world:

Laborer: making 1 sp per day. Lowest of the low classes.
Skilled Worker: making 1 gp per day. This would be working class, just above poverty. I'd personally say that this would also include Apprentices in the Guilds.
Guildsmen: making from 2-3 gp per day. This would be Journeymen in the Guilds or their equivalent.
Master Craftsmen/Merchants: Owners of businesses. These guys operate on the business rules in the DMG2. For the owner of a fleet of ships, I might even consider each ship to be a seperate business for purposes of determing results (again I haven't looked at the DMG2 rules in a while so this may not be how its intended to work).

I think those numbers work adequately for me.

Incidentally, I wouldn't treat a farm as a business according to the DMG2 rules, I'd just give them the unskilled or skilled wage depending on the quality of the farm and farmer. In most cases, farmers would be serfs not independent businessmen... Maybe I'll look those rules over when I get home.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Note that the historical exchange of silver to gold is 20:1, not 10:1. This is true right up to the 19th century. In US currency, the 'silver dollar' is accompanied by a 'gold eagle' that is worth 20 dollars.

I think the ratio was more in the 1:6 to 1:12 ratio until the Age of Discovery, according to the Wikepedia article on silver (It's gotta be true!). So the D&D 1:10 ratio isn't unreasonable, and it certainly is convenient.

 

[Sigurd]

Gold to silver ratios

With due respect, I think all these ratios are bollocks. Most every trade throughout the middle ages was done in _Trade_ not coin. Depending on taxes, conquest, minting and mining, silver and gold changed in value tremendously. Taxes or trade might be assessed as 5 pennies but paid as 2 cows and 3 roosters, or two months of service etc... What was considered fair payment and what you could pay was far more complex than D&D has ever allowed for.

Nobody spent actual money if they could get away with it. It was the most portable, survivable wealth available. How you valued writs, goods and service changed with crop yields, population and politics so much that a top down approach is completely unrealistic. Kings and conquerers demanded portable coin and often sucked regions dry for taxes, levies and tribute. As a result the value of the actual pennies changed with both their rarity and their quality.

Harn is far more realistic in that its manor model makes some attempt at population\consumption and crop yields. The supply and demand basis for economy is entirely ignored by D&D. Even in Harn however realism is so much work that it is often hand waved anyway.


The vast majority of D&D treasure simply would not exist if you have any sort of economic model whatsoever. As a result almost all of PC wealth is hugely inflationary. The lowly copper* my players won't even carry is the most realistic coin in the game.


One typical D&D horde would depress the value of gold for an entire province. Merchants would sell to PCs at a loss to get the portable wealth or at least sell to them before most of their other business. If there was any local scarcity the PCs might not even see how hated they were. Others would feel the price rise to compete with the hard coin that they were spending.

I think you're far better to work with game theory and probability for D&D not realism.



- Sigurd


* Copper has issues all its own especially with the simple game exchange rate and metal purity. Copper coins IMC are certainly not anything like pure copper.