Tyranthraxus
Explorer
Im reserving my final comment after I run it possible 3 times over for PAX Aus.
D&D Expeditions: DDEX3-2 Shackles of Blood (spoilers)
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
I've been thinking about this ever since playing it at GenCon, but haven't put any of my ideas into practice yet.
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Make the ambush winnable, probably just by using fewer archers. Can we lower the save DC of the poison? I'd guess not, but I'm not sure. Anyway, they brought a smaller force because they underestimated the PCs.
In the adventure, it even says that if the PCs win that encounter, their contact tells them to go infiltrate the arena. So why not have them triumph over the Red Plumes, find/glean evidence of what's going on in the arena, and then proactively do that instead of it being a contingency plan for the DM? It'd give the impression of greater player agency, even if it's their contact advising them to do it. They still found the evidence, after all. The arena's heavily guarded, so the easiest way for a bunch of non-humans (probably) to get in is as prisoners. Maybe one PC could pose as a slaver, selling them all to Mags at the gates of Hillsfar, but that presupposes that there's a human PC able to pull off that kind of deception. Faction contacts would probably be a better solution.
But, like, do it closer to Hillsfar. Hopefully this lets us skip the dull prison-wagon ride, and the bit about being exhausted then not exhausted, and watching the Red Plumes bare-knuckle fight each other for whatever reason. They're stricken by the madness too, I guess, but IMO the foreshadowing just isn't strong enough for it to resonate with the riot at the arena.
I am well aware that the wagon ride is an opportunity to roleplay. I get that. My problem with it is that none of it means anything. The text doesn't make allowances for you to, say, defeat all the Red Plumes and commandeer the caravan. I also get that "a good DM could improvise that," but that's exactly what we're talking about here -- ways to improve the scenario above and beyond what it already includes.
Make Deriel less pathetic. Maybe even not pathetic at all! I think she'd make a more compelling NPC if she were more competent and determined. Instead of being a quivering mess in the arena, she could, y'know, contribute! Her rapier +1 is in among everyone else's equipment; she gives it to someone at the end. If she must die, maybe she could die doing something heroic instead of, y'know, leaping to a watery, quippery grave.
Have some of the "bad guy" halflings be the Tinfellows, so the PCs' stated objective is right in front of them instead of in what's essentially a cut scene that takes place in the adventure's denoument. It gives the fight some stakes and might even encourage the PCs to try to "win" the arena game instead of just murdering halflings. How do they recognize them? Maybe they spend the night in the cells below the arena, and the Tinfellows are locked up nearby, and they get to talking. The Tinfellows could even fill them in on the arena fight to come and give them the idea that that might be their best time to make a break for it -- when they're all armed and able to move freely. One of the other things that annoys me about this adventure is that it kinda doesn't matter what the PCs do -- the fight ends with the crowd riots, and that's that. So make this part of the escape plan. The PCs hear that the crowds have been getting really rowdy lately, so much so that the guards can barely contain them. If the guards are preoccupied with policing the crowd instead of the prisoners, escaping would be that much easier.
Related: When I played this, I wanted to take shots at Mags. Hey, I had a longbow, and she was well within range. My DM shut that idea down really ham-fistedly -- basically, "She has archers with her, and they'd fire back at you, so you don't want to do that." So I'd formalize that. Give her some guards, give them some bows, but let the PCs target her if they can. The crowd doesn't like it when the guards fire back (they want to see the prisoners killed by each other, not by guards!), so it increases their frenzy meter or whatever it's called.
I like the arena fight, but it feels really shoehorned in to me -- as if the author were really in love with it (with good reason -- it's a fun, interesting fight, on the face of it) and just wanted it to happen no matter what. If it were presented as a solution to a problem instead of a problem in and of itself, it'd feel a lot different to me.
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Make the ambush winnable, probably just by using fewer archers. Can we lower the save DC of the poison? I'd guess not, but I'm not sure. Anyway, they brought a smaller force because they underestimated the PCs.
In the adventure, it even says that if the PCs win that encounter, their contact tells them to go infiltrate the arena. So why not have them triumph over the Red Plumes, find/glean evidence of what's going on in the arena, and then proactively do that instead of it being a contingency plan for the DM? It'd give the impression of greater player agency, even if it's their contact advising them to do it. They still found the evidence, after all. The arena's heavily guarded, so the easiest way for a bunch of non-humans (probably) to get in is as prisoners. Maybe one PC could pose as a slaver, selling them all to Mags at the gates of Hillsfar, but that presupposes that there's a human PC able to pull off that kind of deception. Faction contacts would probably be a better solution.
But, like, do it closer to Hillsfar. Hopefully this lets us skip the dull prison-wagon ride, and the bit about being exhausted then not exhausted, and watching the Red Plumes bare-knuckle fight each other for whatever reason. They're stricken by the madness too, I guess, but IMO the foreshadowing just isn't strong enough for it to resonate with the riot at the arena.
I am well aware that the wagon ride is an opportunity to roleplay. I get that. My problem with it is that none of it means anything. The text doesn't make allowances for you to, say, defeat all the Red Plumes and commandeer the caravan. I also get that "a good DM could improvise that," but that's exactly what we're talking about here -- ways to improve the scenario above and beyond what it already includes.
Make Deriel less pathetic. Maybe even not pathetic at all! I think she'd make a more compelling NPC if she were more competent and determined. Instead of being a quivering mess in the arena, she could, y'know, contribute! Her rapier +1 is in among everyone else's equipment; she gives it to someone at the end. If she must die, maybe she could die doing something heroic instead of, y'know, leaping to a watery, quippery grave.
Have some of the "bad guy" halflings be the Tinfellows, so the PCs' stated objective is right in front of them instead of in what's essentially a cut scene that takes place in the adventure's denoument. It gives the fight some stakes and might even encourage the PCs to try to "win" the arena game instead of just murdering halflings. How do they recognize them? Maybe they spend the night in the cells below the arena, and the Tinfellows are locked up nearby, and they get to talking. The Tinfellows could even fill them in on the arena fight to come and give them the idea that that might be their best time to make a break for it -- when they're all armed and able to move freely. One of the other things that annoys me about this adventure is that it kinda doesn't matter what the PCs do -- the fight ends with the crowd riots, and that's that. So make this part of the escape plan. The PCs hear that the crowds have been getting really rowdy lately, so much so that the guards can barely contain them. If the guards are preoccupied with policing the crowd instead of the prisoners, escaping would be that much easier.
Related: When I played this, I wanted to take shots at Mags. Hey, I had a longbow, and she was well within range. My DM shut that idea down really ham-fistedly -- basically, "She has archers with her, and they'd fire back at you, so you don't want to do that." So I'd formalize that. Give her some guards, give them some bows, but let the PCs target her if they can. The crowd doesn't like it when the guards fire back (they want to see the prisoners killed by each other, not by guards!), so it increases their frenzy meter or whatever it's called.
I like the arena fight, but it feels really shoehorned in to me -- as if the author were really in love with it (with good reason -- it's a fun, interesting fight, on the face of it) and just wanted it to happen no matter what. If it were presented as a solution to a problem instead of a problem in and of itself, it'd feel a lot different to me.
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TwinPeaksGuy
Explorer
TwinPeaksGuy
Explorer
In all honesty, how is that overboard?
From the PoV of the player's character, they know halflings have been captured and their homes burnt to the ground, their farms stolen by racist humans. They will be hauled away to fight and die for the amusement of a mob, or be sold as slaves. This is the known fate of non-humans in Hillsfar.
Why, when presented with overwhelming numbers and a known dire fate, would any player character do anything other than retreat, and thereby derail the plot?
Maybe Hillsfar is crazy due to the demons on the loose, maybe they're just xenophobes and racists, but their motives don't change the options presented to a character. The storytelling here is an epic failure to consider the players' and characters' motivations. I could see it as a useful storyline in second tier to take the wind out of the sails of characters starting to get too cocky, but had I been playing my first game at that venue with a level 1 character I would have walked away and never looked back. That's just a crappy thing to do to people as an "introduction to the game."
From the PoV of the player's character, they know halflings have been captured and their homes burnt to the ground, their farms stolen by racist humans. They will be hauled away to fight and die for the amusement of a mob, or be sold as slaves. This is the known fate of non-humans in Hillsfar.
Why, when presented with overwhelming numbers and a known dire fate, would any player character do anything other than retreat, and thereby derail the plot?
Maybe Hillsfar is crazy due to the demons on the loose, maybe they're just xenophobes and racists, but their motives don't change the options presented to a character. The storytelling here is an epic failure to consider the players' and characters' motivations. I could see it as a useful storyline in second tier to take the wind out of the sails of characters starting to get too cocky, but had I been playing my first game at that venue with a level 1 character I would have walked away and never looked back. That's just a crappy thing to do to people as an "introduction to the game."
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TwinPeaksGuy
Explorer
So being surrounded by 50 people who want to kill or enslave you is a good reason to surrender, yet sneaking into a city full of people who want to kill you in what should reasonably be a doomed effort to rescue some captives is supposed to make sense as not suicidal? If the first makes sense, why wouldn't you just walk quietly to the gallows like a good little drone?
Again, I think the entire plotline is just a disaster as a lower-tier adventure. Following the plot as written at no time makes any sense.
Yeah, hated the adventure.
I didn't hate the adventure, though now that the adventure was released in Dragon+ and I've had a chance to read it, it certainly has a vibe that the editors weren't thrilled with it and added a bunch of sidebars that basically add up to, "Yeah, we're not entirely happy with this adventure, either, but here's how to make the best of it."
Your experience will likely be positive in direct proportion to the amount of prep time your DM has with this module.
--
Pauper
Your experience will likely be positive in direct proportion to the amount of prep time your DM has with this module.
--
Pauper
darjr
I crit!
Uh... Did you miss the part where they are taking live prisoners? My players didn't.
Also there are suggestions in the mod in case things are different. Like the time I ran it and the players were not taken prisoner.
I do think a it's a tough mod to run but my results at the table have been pretty cool. Also I wouldn't want this to be a regular thing.
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TwinPeaksGuy
Explorer
No, I saw that part. That's how I found myself surrounded while trying to rescue them, and presented with the options of saving my own life and freedom or fighting to the bitter end and bringing the plot to a screeching halt. I refused to surrender to the jackboots, I fought them until I was down to 5 HP and then ran and I'd do it again even though it took over an hour for the combat encounter and completely screwed the run time of the table. If they were going to take me it was going to cost them time and lives. I do not agree that helpfully lining up to be slaughtered was even an option. Surrendering made no sense, it still doesn't. Why go quietly to be killed or enslaved? If those were my options, the poor halflings were beyond my help.
The centerpiece of the adventure was supposed to be the arena, and given the time overruns in getting there and my refusal to dance like a monkey for a howling mob (by then the rest of the table saw my point and rebelled as well) we broke out the prisoners before the arena scene even started. Even going in there was against my better judgement. It was even more suicidal than running the clock on getting captured was, and yet it was the only way to move forward with what little plot there was.
I could try to blame the DM, but honestly the options presented to follow the plot as written were all awful. This is easily my least favorite Expedition of the ones I've played so far.
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