D&D: High Fantasy vs. Sword & Sorcery

Which subgenre would you prefer to see ascendent in D&D if you had to choose?


Korgoth said:
That's the "story" of D&D: a bunch of self-serving adventurers mount an expedition (like an old-time archaeo-treasure-swiping expedition) to the lost city/cavern/whatever to plunder it of whatever cool old stuff it has; these mercenaries will brave its many dangers in hopes of gaining wealth and power....I think that S&S should be the core style of D&D, because I think it was originally intended to be so.
While Gary Gygax appears to have run his games this way he really sounds like a...uh...jerk of a Dungeon Master when he describes his style. He also isn't the only person who defined how Dungeons & Dragons would or should be played (I've heard rumors of this guy named Dave Arneson for one). D&D players quickly inserted the high fantasy genre into the game. Record of the Lodoss War (an anime, I know :p) is based on a high fantasy D&D game. Author R.A. Salvatore's novels featuring a drow focus on high fantasy conflicts with massive orc armies (not to mention the high fantasy Dragonlance novels).

Even mechanically speaking the Paladin character class is essentially high fantasy. Fondly do I remember :confused: the 'Paladin in Hell' image from Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I am strongly in support of Sword&Sorcery. High fantasy simply isn't my thing, either in literature or in my games. Most of D&D's traditional assumptions hew closer to S&S; indeed, the entire "adventurer" concept has more in common with the flawed protagonists of Leiber, Howard and Vance than high fantasy characters, who triumph over their opponents because of their superior morality. Korgoth makes some good points about this:
Korgoth said:
S&S is about mercenary adventurers who follow their occupation because they are socially irresponsible, misfits, or too proud to get a regular job. ... I think D&D is designed for S&S because of the original XP mechanic: you get XP for finding gold. Why do you get XP for finding gold? Because that's your job. That's what you do for a living instead of being a peasant. You rob tombs and justify it by noting that since the inhabitants were all undead, they were probably jerks in the first place. You're an "adventurer"... that means that instead of working for a living, you scavenge wealth from the forgotten places, places men with less backbone and more work ethic prudently avoid. ... That's the "story" of D&D: a bunch of self-serving adventurers mount an expedition (like an old-time archaeo-treasure-swiping expedition) to the lost city/cavern/whatever to plunder it of whatever cool old stuff it has; these mercenaries will brave its many dangers in hopes of gaining wealth and power. Monsters? If there are any, hopefully we can avoid/evade/trick/blitzkrieg them before they can threaten us. Or maybe they can eat our porters while we high-tail it out of the lair. Saves us having to pay them when we get back to civilization.
There, that is the D&D experience to me in a nutshell. When we come down to brass tacks, being an adventurer is about murder for profit, and a cynical, materialistic outlook. This is unfomfortable to many, but in truth, when was the last time when your characters really did good for the sake of doing good? Did they do it with no compensation in the form of XP and gp and those nifty magic items? Did they sacrifice life (permanently), power and happiness for the common good? Because Lord of the Rings is about these sacrifices and how much they cost you. Of course, not all high fantasy fits the Tolkien mold, but even so, even supposedly good D&D characters tend to have a rather... mercenary outlook.

Of course, this is glossed over. What D&D has is a sort of compromise, so you are getting more wealthy and powerful by killing sentients beings and robbing them of their valuables, but it is okay because they were bad people and you were doing the right thing. Look, you even stopped the Evil Overlord in the end!

To me, and this is entirely subjective, a stronger S&S vibe feels more honest than "D&D fantasy", which has all the outwards trappings of high fantasy - idyllic rural communities, noble heroes, benevolent monarchs and heroic quests - while it ignores its message. But then I also prefer the imagery, the structure of the stories, the mosaic-like worldbuilding, and all that jazz.
 

I voted S&S but I like them both, really.

I like to read what I think of as High Fantasy (Tolkien, Jordan, Gemmel, Eddings, Feist, etc.) but I'm about halfway through the Complete Chronicles of Conan and, man, I love that stuff.
I think I enjoy reading S&S more.

I'd like to play an S&S hero but generally end up as an HF fellowship member.

Then again, my general literary preference is for High Sci-Fi (Banks, Reynolds, Gibson, Brunner, etc.)
 

Well, now looking at the results, I am surprised! I was pleasantly (because I prefer it this way, but thought for sure it'd go the other) surprised when S&S took an early lead, but it was running fairly neck and neck for a little while. Now S&S is beating out HF at a rate of nearly 2:1!
 

jonathan swift said:
See, to me, those are things that don't apply along the high fantasy/sword and sorcery schism. You have Lord of the Rings where orcs and trolls are hugely feared. And then you have Conan who fears nothing.

I think you should go back and re-read your Conan stories. Conan fears no mortal man, however there are many times when the mighty barbarian is in dread fear of the supernatural. Weather in the form of ancient and evil sorcerers or demonic spawn from another dimension. Conan was not always the triumphant hero, many times he ran from danger in fear for his life and sanity.


Anyway, S&S for me. I love the gritty feel. I currently play in a campaign of truly epic scale, magic flows like water and our actions directly affect the shape of the world and more.

What I long for is a game where death is a thing to be feared by even the mightiest of men. I know there are d20 variants out there which support this feel, and quite well from what I've seen, and I'll even be running one in the (hopefully) near future. I'd really like to play in one, but... we'll see.
 

Felix said:
D&D suffers from Tolkien the same way physics suffers from Einstein.

Funny thing is, Gygax always said he put the Tolkienisms in D&D under pressure from his players, and personally found LOTR boring. I agree; the LOTR movies are way more fun than the books. There, I said it!

The game Gygax seems to have intended was based on authors like Howard, Leiber, Vance, and Lovecraft (especially works like like "Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath").

Return the game to its Sword & Sorcery roots!
 
Last edited:

If I had to choose one it would be High Fantasy, but, as you suspected, I am more nuanced than that.

The Sword & Sorcery is fine now and again -- no implications, no connections, no having to think about much other than killing the next opponent and looting the next treasure --, but I far prefer having a society I can sink my fangs into, a reason to be together as an adventuring group, a reason for The Quest other than levelling up and getting rich.

I think this is why out of all the Sword & Sorcery stuff out there I prefer Leiber to the others -- at least he has a sense of humour about the genre. :)
 



I guess it really comes down to what you define as High Fantasy vs. Sword & Sorcery. D&D really is a High Fantasy game with the overwhelming levels of magic and I think it should continue in that manner (I also think that it needs to be majorly streamlined, but that's a different topic).

I prefer grittier fantasy myself, so I went with True20, which I have been very pleased with in play.
 

Remove ads

Top