D&D Insider - Pay tomorrow for what you get today for free?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I was just happy to be quoted for truth...it's never happened to me before, so it made my day.

In my heart, I QFT you constantly!

 

[MojoGM]

I would be astounded if that were the case. I have purchased several WotC books on the strength of the preview, the web enhancement, or the Design & Development column, all of which will be moved to the pay only section of the site, and which I therefore won't be accessing.

They will probably still have free content, just more content that will be for subscribers.

Really, at this point it is all theory, since there has been no official announcement of what it will or will not be. I think people are over-reacting. Not all free content will go away, the whole website won't have a padlock on it to keep out non-paying people, and nobody will come to your home to check your membership card.

Wizards.com will probably continue as it is, with maybe a little less content, but the pay side will have a lot more, updated daily.

To me it seems like a good idea.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah but as you responded after I posted what was to me a fairly harmless (aka QFT)response you could see how I could have taken that the wrong way though, right.

Actually, no. My entire original post was "Whatever side of an argument one is on, QFT doesn't add any more to a thread than 'me too,' which people try and avoid doing," which suddenly merits accusations of "net bravery," as though I was threatening to beat up people who disagreed with me.

You jump all over me for expressing an opinion and tear me a new one for not attacking people you think need to be attacked. When I try to defuse it with humor, my "cleverness" gets sneered at. You flew off the handle over nothing and attempted to bully me because I said something -- in a very mild fashion -- that you disagreed with.

But you get your wish, you're on ignore.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I do, and it's really silly. First, we're not talking about a "cheat code" or additional uniforms or stadiums, the sort of things EA was charging for. We're talking about actual content that can be used in games, that people pay for all the time.

Cheat codes and stadius and uniforms are things people pay for by buying the game. Web supplements are something I pay for by buying the book.

People pay for "extras" all the time. Like I said, paying for the extras (the tabletop gaming, the 6-week course, even new monsters or PrC's, etc) isn't the problem. What they have a problem paying for is when a company removes those "extras" from a finished product just so they can charge more for 'em. Especially when there's no real reason given (and there hasn't been, beyond "it's part of this new pay privelege!"). If I went to buy a sub sandwich today and they started charging me $.50 for lettuce if I want it, it would also be an issue.

Them providing you with free content was a really awesome thing for them to do. If it ends because they've looked at the bottom line and can't afford it anymore, I'd rather they give me the option to pay for it to continue rather than just have it go away.

This is a false choice. Nothing about the situation says that it would be going away if we didn't pay. There's no evidence to support this claim.

Because they have done this really cool thing in the past, you're basically saying they're trapped. They now must CONTINUE to do this cool thing for you, or they're jerks.

Not jerks, drug pushers. Using shady business practices that make me feel ripped off.

Only WotC knows for sure why they are implementing a subscription model, but there are plenty of plausible reasons why they would want to do so. And I believe that most of those reasons aren't shady or questionable.

Oh, there absolutely *are* good reasons why they could be doing this.

Do you see them mentioning any of those reasons? No? Then what, beyond glass-is-half-full optimism, makes you think they *have* such reasons?

Myself, I think that WotC is in the business to make money, and they'll do it by charging for things people find valuable. I'm supported by at least two examples of companies doing similar things in recent history.

It's not that I'm some crazy anti-corporate madman, either. I don't fault WotC for making money. I fault them for making money by rescinding their goodwill.

It's just a part of a changing consumer landscape. If a company doesn't change and adapt your offerings to fit with significant changes, such as the emergence of the Internet and digital publishing, it's doomed to fail eventually.

And, again, I'm not faulting them for charging for the new stuff, the internet tabletop, the six-week course, even new monsters and rules.

 

[DonTadow]

Cheat codes and stadius and uniforms are things people pay for by buying the game. Web supplements are something I pay for by buying the book.

People pay for "extras" all the time. Like I said, paying for the extras (the tabletop gaming, the 6-week course, even new monsters or PrC's, etc) isn't the problem. What they have a problem paying for is when a company removes those "extras" from a finished product just so they can charge more for 'em. Especially when there's no real reason given (and there hasn't been, beyond "it's part of this new pay privelege!"). If I went to buy a sub sandwich today and they started charging me $.50 for lettuce if I want it, it would also be an issue.

But you step on your own point again.

Remember when DVDs first came out. You got all the nice and shiny extras. All the extra scenes and specials were on them. It was special. You got a lot for free. Then the studios figured out they could make more money. All of a sudden, for the same price you paid before, you just get the normal old DVD. On the same day, you could also pick up the deluxe DVD with all the extras, outtakes and special commentary by Tarrininto. Was anyone crying foul then? Nope. We realized that it wasn't going to last forever.

When you buy a book, that was all you were buying. The factor of web content is not charged in that book. Else WoTC would have a problem with the millions ofp eople who don't have computers to get it. Ironically, this issue came up when Brady Games decided to release a hintbook for Final Fantasy 8 and provided a code in it where you had to go to the website for the rest of the book. Enough people complained to the point in which you rarely see this happen again. YOu pay for what you get and be glad if the publisher is nice enough to offer some incentives.

Another example. Paizo. Dungeon offers free enhancements on their website. I don't expect this to last long and I hope it won't. I"d rather spend the money and get some additional work done on them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Remember when DVDs first came out. You got all the nice and shiny extras. All the extra scenes and specials were on them. It was special. You got a lot for free. Then the studios figured out they could make more money. All of a sudden, for the same price you paid before, you just get the normal old DVD. On the same day, you could also pick up the deluxe DVD with all the extras, outtakes and special commentary by Tarrininto. Was anyone crying foul then? Nope. We realized that it wasn't going to last forever.

They might have been, if anyone actually *used* the extra stuff. I don't have the studies to quote, but I'm sure they will support me: most people don't care about the extra stuff on DVD's. So when the "deluxe editions" came out, the only people who would pay more are those who wanted the extra stuff -- those who wouldn't mind paying more anyway.

It's not entirely a similar scenario, obviously. "We realized that it wasn't going to last forever" is a false leap of logic. Most people probably didn't even realize *it happened,* given how rarely these extra features are actually used.

And those who did notice certainly do have issues with it. For instance, take the recent accounts of major studios who are trying to prosecute internet pirating who claim that their sales are down because of internet pirating. One counterargument to that is that their sales are down because the DVD format offers little in the way of added value to a movie to justify it's higher price relative to other formats. Similarly, you're going to see BluRay and HDDVD claim that you can pay more for better quality, but neither format will last long because those formats don't add value to the movie, normally. HDTV is already experiencing this crunch, I believe.

When you buy a book, that was all you were buying. The factor of web content is not charged in that book. Else WoTC would have a problem with the millions ofp eople who don't have computers to get it. Ironically, this issue came up when Brady Games decided to release a hintbook for Final Fantasy 8 and provided a code in it where you had to go to the website for the rest of the book. Enough people complained to the point in which you rarely see this happen again. YOu pay for what you get and be glad if the publisher is nice enough to offer some incentives.

No, when I buy a book, I am choosing to support a company who produces material that I enjoy. It's much more involved than simply taking home some paper and ink -- it's a whole social network I buy into. I buy their creativity, I buy their time, I buy their artistry, I buy their product identity, I buy their distribution, I buy their production standards...I'm not just buying a book, I'm supporting an infrastructure.

When I buy a book to support their creativity, I am also paying for them to have a website where they can show me more of their creativity. I pay for their website already.

Another example. Paizo. Dungeon offers free enhancements on their website. I don't expect this to last long and I hope it won't. I"d rather spend the money and get some additional work done on them.

This isn't a valid example until they choose to do so. Until then, it's a coutner-example. Paizo still offers free enhancements to their products (which, again, we've really already paid for).

 

[2WS-Steve]

My dad once worked at this privately owned movie theater. One night the owner was down working the concession stand and this guy comes in with his girlfriend and starts buying the place up -- big tub of popcorn, sodas, candy, hot dogs, and a pack of cigarettes (this was back in the day). So the guy breaks out his wallet to pay for all this, then loads his arms up with all that loot, and gets ready to go into the theater.

Then he remembers, and turns back to the owner and asks for a book of matches.

The owner pulls out a book of matches and says "That'll be three cents please."

It was certainly his right to charge three cents for the matches. The matches certainly cost him some money that he would have to recoup somehow.

But he was still a cheap bastard.

And if I go out and pay $30-$40 for d20 Modern and Dark*Matter and the d20 Modern Menace Manual and WotC tries to charge me for those little four-page adventures they throw on the web, I'll think they're cheap bastards too.

Anyway, that's my worry.

I imagine they'll put something more substantial up. But, assuming something like a $10 a month subscription price, I'd want something better than the equivalent of a $10 PDF. Because when I buy a PDF I get to choose the one that suits my needs exactly -- as opposed to being saddled with whatever someone at WotC thought would satisfy the most people.

Moreover, I'd be deeply suspicious that what we'll see are the leftovers from stuff they thought couldn't justify a print run. Sometimes that can be really cool because it's experimental material. But it can also be just the stuff that didn't quite turn out as good as they expected.

For $20 a month I'd either need glowing software tools (i.e. oodles better than RPGObject's d20 Modern character generator that has a one-time cost of $20) or online access to all WotC books that are in print in a convenient hyper-linked format -- and even then I'm not sure if I'd prefer the subscription to just buying the books themselves.

 

[DonTadow]

They might have been, if anyone actually *used* the extra stuff. I don't have the studies to quote, but I'm sure they will support me: most people don't care about the extra stuff on DVD's. So when the "deluxe editions" came out, the only people who would pay more are those who wanted the extra stuff -- those who wouldn't mind paying more anyway.

Ok, so we agree if you look at it logically. If you want the extra stuff you got to pay more. This is opposite your argument?

And those who did notice certainly do have issues with it. For instance, take the recent accounts of major studios who are trying to prosecute internet pirating who claim that their sales are down because of internet pirating. One counterargument to that is that their sales are down because the DVD format offers little in the way of added value to a movie to justify it's higher price relative to other formats. Similarly, you're going to see BluRay and HDDVD claim that you can pay more for better quality, but neither format will last long because those formats don't add value to the movie, normally. HDTV is already experiencing this crunch, I believe.

But yet DVDS that have more extras sell more than their basic versions. IN particular old movie and tv shows. Of course if I was being brought up on federal charges I'd come up with a theory too.

No, when I buy a book, I am choosing to support a company who produces material that I enjoy. It's much more involved than simply taking home some paper and ink -- it's a whole social network I buy into. I buy their creativity, I buy their time, I buy their artistry, I buy their product identity, I buy their distribution, I buy their production standards...I'm not just buying a book, I'm supporting an infrastructure.

When I buy a book to support their creativity, I am also paying for them to have a website where they can show me more of their creativity. I pay for their website already.

YOu find me one... just one receipt, book or disclaimer that says that when you pay 40 bucks for this wotc book it comes with a stocked website to support it. YOu're confusing a privilege with a requirement. The web content is a privilege ...the book, the thing you purchase, is the requirement. That statement just sounds awful spoiled. Prior to special editions, the bonuses were a priveldge, however when I buy the special edition, it is required that they have more than the original.

You can't name one other industry that supports your suggestion. When I buy a Nancy Kress Novel, should I expect bonus chapters on her website complete with her thoughts of the characters?

When you buys a book, you buy the creativity on those pages but that is it. You can not buy a book and go and get the one next to it because you bought the creativity in the first. You can not buy a hamburger and expect to get the fries free because the cook's vision was in both.

 

[JoeGKushner]

But you step on your own point again.

Remember when DVDs first came out. You got all the nice and shiny extras. All the extra scenes and specials were on them. It was special. You got a lot for free.

Not my experience at all.

I remember crappy DVD's that you had to flip to watch the whole movie. Great movies like Sleepers where you had to flip the friggin' thing. They were called 'Flippers'. About the same time Divx was out. Or other older movies like Ran where the translation and transfer were terrible and you were hoping for a real version of the movie to come out.

I'm not saying that double dipping isn't rampant, but your timeline is off to say the least. A lot of those first gen DVDs sucked hard and not in the good way.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

You can not buy a hamburger and expect to get the fries free because the cook's vision was in both.

No, but you can expect all the napkins and ketchup that you want.

That's what's on the WotC site. Napkins and ketchup.

The added new features might be akin to the french fries, but all the stuff they put up now--adventures, web enhancements, design & development articles, etc.--is napkins and ketchup.

So they can feel free to put up some cool new stuff and charge for *that*, but they can expect to sell a lot fewer hamburgers unless the napkins and ketchup remain free.