D&D is an Adult Game?

[Steel_Wind]

Bill - I'm going by what Ryan Dancey said in an interview with Fear the Boot. He stated that people's buying tails off dramatically after 35.

I don't mean to be taken as disagreeing with the view that D&D was marketed to teens. I think it always was. Teenage years are the point of customer acquisition for the hobby. There is a tremendous amount of customer churn as customers leave college, too.

But customer acquisition and customer retention are two different things.

As for the Dancey comments, they cannot be taken out of context. Dancey's comments were based upon serious market research that examined the market at a particular point in time - that time being the year 2000/2001.

Those comments were fair at the time the data was collected. But Dancey assumed that data collected at a fixed point in time remained true over succeeding years, too. And that's where I think he went wrong.

That data was collected in 2000 -- ten years ago. I expect that those comments are no longer true. Why? Because the hardcore lifestyle gamer is ten years older now, that's why.

The hardcore lifestyle gamers came into the game in the late 70s and early 80s. Most of us were at that time in our early and mid-teens. We were playing a game that was supposedly for "mensa" style geniuses. Disappearance of James Dallas Egbert III, Mazes and Monsters and all that.

But we were younger than that -- at the time.

We got older and most of us dropped the hobby. But those few of us who did not drop the hobby over the years became their best customers on a revenue per individual basis. Spending ridiculous amounts of money on the game.

My point: Ryan Dancey was not lying when he said those things on Fear the Boot (I remember the interview well). But you can mislead yourself if you sample the market at a particular point in time and then project the same demographic findings ten years later and expect them to say exactly the same thing. I predict those findings won't hold because...

D&D was in many respects a generational phenomenon. It had a demographic boom, bust and an echo over the years. Those ripples have moved forward in time along with the fans of the game as we have aged. To assume otherwise as Dancey has is, imo, potentially dangerously misleading.

 

[BryonD]

My question is, when has D&D ever been anything but a game for teens?

When has D&D been marketed to a 30+ aged crowd?

Again, this is a substantial moving of goal posts.

I don't know that much proactive marketing to 30+ is even a valid point of question. It most absolutely is not relevant to the "anything but a games for teens" point that was in the OP. But even beyond that, the marketing target is not a quality metric for the "who plays" question.

I think we can agree that beer is considered an "adult" beverage. Alcohol in general is even referenced as an identifier in the OP. And yet the primary marketing target of beer ads is the 18 - 25 year olds. It isn't remotely accurate to interpret from that older people don't drink beer. To the contrary, that would be a wildly erroneous conclusion. But, the key payoff on the advertising is establishing a brand of choice for a lifetime of preference to come.

Gaming isn't precisely the same. But I don't know many adult gamers who were not gamers in their teens or at least by college. I'm sure they are out there. But they represent a very tiny percentage. Wise gamer marketing is not going to be aimed at vast groups of adult non-gamers who are not going to start now. The best targets are existing gamers across the age spectrum, and young non-gamers who still may become lifelong gamers.

D&D started as an adult game played by adults. Over the years a wide range of ages have played. But the term "adult game" is entirely fitting.

Trying to measure marketing toward people far above the "adult" threshold and who are not likely to start gaming is a wildly inappropriate assessment.

 

[pawsplay]

Again, this is a substantial moving of goal posts.

I think it was a deliberate resetting of the parameters of the discussion. Moving goal posts implied a lack of interest in resolution, whereas I think Hussar is interested in this new line of questioning, the previous topic having been exhausted.

 

[pawsplay]

A 17 year old sure can have a checking account. I had one younger than that. You just need a parent to set it up with you, depending on the bank's rules.

In other words, a teenager can't have a checking account. I opened one at 17 myself... with my dad as a co-signer.

I do think you're drastically underestimating the disposable income of teens, though. It's not just allowance. Most kids worked part time when I was in high school via summer jobs, supermarkets, local malls, and fast food. They don't make as much as adult gamers in most cases, but they make enough to get some stuff, go to local cons, etc.

Almost all of that activity occurs in kids 17+, the second group I mentioned.

 

[BryonD]

I think it was a deliberate resetting of the parameters of the discussion. Moving goal posts implied a lack of interest in resolution, whereas I think Hussar is interested in this new line of questioning, the previous topic having been exhausted.

Does that mean that the previous line of questioning is resolved and that the references to D&D as an adult game in the other threads are now validated?

If that is done, then that's good. And I'll just reference the rest of my post as a "not much, and here is why that doesn't really mean anything" on the new topic.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

When I was in high school, most kids - myself included - had part time jobs.

The US is a bit freakish in the size of our teenage work force, which incidentally also equates to teens having a lot of disposable income - primary reason they make such a freakishly large work force, really.

 

[billd91]

In other words, a teenager can't have a checking account. I opened one at 17 myself... with my dad as a co-signer.

That may be the rule at your bank and under your regulations, it may not be the same everywhere. But ultimately, if it's the kid writing checks and the parents leave it to his responsibility, it's his checking account.

 

[outsider]

But instead of marketing D+D as an alternative to WoW, why not market it as the end point of a progression in one's gaming life of which WoW was merely a (less mature) phase?

There are several reasons they don't do this.

1. D&D isn't more "mature" than WoW.
2. The purpose of advertising isn't to alienate potential customers, it's to bring them in.
3. The idea that D&D is some sort of natural end point to a progression of games in the average gamer's life is preposterous.
4. All such an advertising campaign does is stroke the egos of D&D players who want to believe that they are superior to people who play other games. It probably won't even get said players to buy more books.

We're all pretending to be dwarfs and magicians here, trying to claim that your way of doing that is more mature than somebody else's is ridiculous.

 

[pawsplay]

That may be the rule at your bank and under your regulations, it may not be the same everywhere. But ultimately, if it's the kid writing checks and the parents leave it to his responsibility, it's his checking account.

In the US, you have to be 18, and it's the parents responsibility... often even if the kid opens the account fraudulently, from what i've heard.

 

[Hussar]

I think it was a deliberate resetting of the parameters of the discussion. Moving goal posts implied a lack of interest in resolution, whereas I think Hussar is interested in this new line of questioning, the previous topic having been exhausted.

Thank you for understanding what I meant. It's nice when that happens.

BryonD - my original point wasn't about the PLAYERS or the content of D&D, but the marketing, because that's what was brought up. I just explained my point spectacularly badly. But, whatever, I have a feeling you are far more interested in trying to be right than actually having a discussion.

And I do think there is a serious underestimating the buying power of teens in America. What difference does opening a checking account make? Who cares? You don't need a checking account to buy a D&D book. Most places will take cash. And, never mind just bugging Mom or Dad to use the credit card to buy something online.

And, really, think of it this way. The rules for getting a credit card are likely as stringent as getting a checking account (I'm not American, so I'm guessing here). Does that mean that no teens play WOW since they cannot have their own credit cards?