D&D General d&d is anti-medieval

[ikos]

It gets worse. Depending on which medievalist you ask, "feudalism" (as described in typical fashion by the linked blog post) may not have existed anywhere. And even among those who are willing to cop to, say, the Norman French running things in roughly this fashion for a few generations, it's seen as a kind of outdated and not particularly useful term/concept.

This has more to due with the structure of a academia than the likelihood we now have a better take on the period’s social structure than a century ago. To make a name in the field, you refute, nuance, or complicate previous arguments. Marc Bloch’s work is still pretty solid. However, a generation of medievalists have needed to justify their existence since his time by bringing new ideas to the table - publish or perish. Nobody is going to read the twelfth book about how Bloch was correct.

 

[jasper]

D&D has always been American Medieval. If not Roman and Moses, Not western, Not post 1776 then it is medieval.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

The "Medieval" descriptor only seems to refer to the level of the development of technology in medieval Europe: More advanced than the stone-age, and no widespread use of gunpowder and steam engines yet.

Other continents (i.e. the Americas) did not have this age, hence the choice to call it European.

It would have been more correct to state that D&D rulebook is for "Fantastic War Games infused with exclusively the technology and by no means the other cultural, societal or governmental aspects of the Middle Ages centered around the year 1300-1500". But that is just a bit too long for a front page.

 

[GreyLord]

I think D&D was more influenced by American Westerns than the entire Medieval World or Western Europe.

Its' the idea of a bunch of cowboys (Adventurers) going after that hidden gold buried in them thar hills, or fighting off the bandits raiding the local towns, or fighting off the local evil Sheriff (Lord).

There's a LOT of the American West found in D&D.

 

[Umbran]

I think D&D was more influenced by American Westerns than the entire Medieval World or Western Europe.

Its' the idea of a bunch of cowboys (Adventurers) going after that hidden gold buried in them thar hills, or fighting off the bandits raiding the local towns, or fighting off the local evil Sheriff (Lord).

There's a LOT of the American West found in D&D.

Which is interesting, given that many of the tropes of Westerns come from other sources. Fighting off bandits? That's The Magnificent Seven, which comes from The Seven Samurai. Fighting off the local evil Sheriff is totally Robin Hood.

 

[Oofta]

Which is interesting, given that many of the tropes of Westerns come from other sources. Fighting off bandits? That's The Magnificent Seven, which comes from The Seven Samurai. Fighting off the local evil Sheriff is totally Robin Hood.

Traveling to dangerous lands, fighting off dangerous enemies and getting rewarded is as old as mythology.

So you could say that D&D is a mix of greco-roman mythology with some norse, celtic and a smattering of other European lore. All thrown in a blender with pseudo-medieval technology, magic, westerns, 50s sci-fi, cheap plastic minis from Hong Kong and fantasy novels. The list goes on.

It's not one thing and it was never meant to be.

 

[dragoner]

Which is End times in fact, and a great read.

It is a great read, and it's the "other" after Tolkien that's the obvious big influence, medieval and western influences are side influences that come from the background. Partially because of the midwestern origin and there being no resource other than the library to check out books on late medieval stuff. Where do the huge dungeons come from? Those don't make any sense without Tolkien or Vance, definitely not western or medieval.

 

[GreyLord]

Which is interesting, given that many of the tropes of Westerns come from other sources. Fighting off bandits? That's The Magnificent Seven, which comes from The Seven Samurai. Fighting off the local evil Sheriff is totally Robin Hood.

True, but when you combine many of the items from D&D and AD&D, you get a distinctly American feel.

It comes out even stronger when you get to name level. There you can gain titles and such, but it is strongly hinted that you are taming/settling the frontier or new lands by building a stronghold and such.

Europe overall had people building castles, but in many ways taming the land and wandering through the wilderness was more of an American ideal.

Looking at it's origins in the US, and how popular Westerns were from the 30s - late 60s and early 70s, I'd say Gygax and Arneson probably had a great deal of influence from Westerns...far more than from Medieval or even fantasy movies. With Books he had the influences of Tolkien and others, but with everyday media I'd put a stronger correlation to the Westerns that dominated his youth and younger years as a strong influence that we can see on D&D and AD&D (well, OD&D - AD&D 1e...which influences the rest of D&D to this day in it's foundational aspects).

 

[Derren]

I mentioned in a other thread ages ago that D&D as written has a lot of American influence in it.

The right to bear arms everywhere, the free acquisition of land when you put down your home there and the general lawlessness and the expectation that the PCs are their own boss, not accountable to anyone and can go where they please.

Those are all american values and history which have nothing to do with the European medieveal period. The only thing that can be said about D&D which is more European than American is the existing of a old but now destroyed high culture which ruins you plunder and the trend that old stuff is often better than stuff you can make now.

 

[Tonguez]

True, but when you combine many of the items from D&D and AD&D, you get a distinctly American feel.

It comes out even stronger when you get to name level. There you can gain titles and such, but it is strongly hinted that you are taming/settling the frontier or new lands by building a stronghold and such.

Europe overall had people building castles, but in many ways taming the land and wandering through the wilderness was more of an American ideal.

Looking at it's origins in the US, and how popular Westerns were from the 30s - late 60s and early 70s, I'd say Gygax and Arneson probably had a great deal of influence from Westerns...far more than from Medieval or even fantasy movies. With Books he had the influences of Tolkien and others, but with everyday media I'd put a stronger correlation to the Westerns that dominated his youth and younger years as a strong influence that we can see on D&D and AD&D (well, OD&D - AD&D 1e...which influences the rest of D&D to this day in it's foundational aspects).

Robert E Howard was from Texas and spent his early life amongst real Cowboys, his influences were Jack London and Rudyard Kipling as well as Norse and Greek Mythology and his stories combine Texas sensibilities with the Weird fantasy genre.
He is most famous for Conan but other notable stories are the Daughter of Erlik Khan (set in the exotic wilderness of Afghanistan, where an adventurer from El Paso is able to establish himself as chief of a hill tribe) and also one of the first Weird Westerns.
Anyway I’m guessing it was those Weird Pulps and Freebooting adventurers like Conan and El Borak that influenced Gygax and Arneson rather than ‘Westerns’.

The point remains however that all of these are part of the same tropes of ‘Western fantasy’