Desdichado
Hero
barsoomcore said:
Hang on to what? I think you're right -- this thread's about had it.
D&D is best when the magic is high, fast and furious!
- Thread starter Dragonblade
- Start date
Hang on to what? I think you're right -- this thread's about had it.
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Joshua Dyal said:
I think you're right -- this thread's about had it.
Pretty much. But we had a fun run while it lasted! Thanks to all who responded, I enjoyed the debate immensely!
Arc
First Post
This is a subject I disagree with:
Sometimes, insta deaths are quite reasonable. If casters can have save-or-die spells, why can't fighters have crit-and-instakill weapons? HP is supposed to simulate the minor damages and weariness taken in combat, but when a hit really connects, there should be no reason for it to not do major damage.
One of the most memorable moments from an OA campaign was when our party (recently from Faerun) encountered a very honorable, high level samurai that was to guide us to a main city. While introducing himself, and mentioning the name of his clan, our party rogue burst out laughing while drinking his soda. He spilled Pepsi everywhere, and continued to chuckle about the "Crab" clan. The DM took out a d20, rolled a 19, hit, and the katana was keen, vorpal and the samurai had imp. critical. We picked up the rogue's head, and had to resurrect him once we got to town.
Sometimes, insta deaths are quite reasonable. If casters can have save-or-die spells, why can't fighters have crit-and-instakill weapons? HP is supposed to simulate the minor damages and weariness taken in combat, but when a hit really connects, there should be no reason for it to not do major damage.
Arc
First Post
This is a subject I disagree with:
Sometimes, insta deaths are quite reasonable. If casters can have save-or-die spells, why can't fighters have crit-and-instakill weapons? HP is supposed to simulate the minor damages and weariness taken in combat, but when a hit really connects, there should be no reason for it to not do major damage.
And that is a _whole_ nother story.
One of the most memorable moments from an OA campaign was when our party (recently from Faerun) encountered a very honorable, high level samurai that was to guide us to a main city. While introducing himself, and mentioning the name of his clan, our party rogue burst out laughing while drinking his soda. He spilled Pepsi everywhere, and continued to chuckle about the "Crab" clan. The DM took out a d20, rolled a 19, hit, and the katana was keen, vorpal and the samurai had imp. critical. We picked up the rogue's head, and had to resurrect him once we got to town.
Sometimes, insta deaths are quite reasonable. If casters can have save-or-die spells, why can't fighters have crit-and-instakill weapons? HP is supposed to simulate the minor damages and weariness taken in combat, but when a hit really connects, there should be no reason for it to not do major damage.
And that is a _whole_ nother story.
Re
The more I think about this topic, the more I begin to understand that the reason the D&D magic system is so lacking is because it utterly without explanation. We have no idea why wizards or clerics can cast spells or why magic items work, they simply do.
I always like to use my favorite author's world as an example. In Middle Earth, magic in the elder ages is ubiquitous, yet still interesting. Magic swords, armor and spells in The Simarillion are commonplace. Magic was at an all time high, and to the elder elves, magic was so common that they didn't, and still don't, even consider it magic.
What makes this all palatable is that it is well-explained. I don't even think most players would mind ubiquitous magic as long as it was well-explained and reasonably blended into the campaign world. That is why core D&D is lacking.
I hear Tolkien cited by the low-magic people all the time, yet Tolkien's world is rife with magic. Moreso than many other worlds, though the magic isn't as spectacular or over-the-top as standar D&D. It is still very powerful and present in Tolkien's world. To the elves, magic is so commonplace so as not even to be considered magic.
I believe that ubiquitous isn't the problem either, it is the total lack of explanation for the existence of powerful magic. There are no checks and balances to limits it use and magic items are found in the lairs of monster with no real reason why they are there. We are left to assume that the monster who inhabits the lair killed some adventurer who previously possess the item.
I thank Dragonblade for starting this discussion and the others who have contributed. I have really begin to think about what was lacking with D&D's magic system. The magic system was really beginning to bog down my stories and make them utterly unbelievable. I found that it was not low or high magic or even ubiquitous magic that was the cause, but the utter lack explanation or reason why the magic worked or was present in the first place.
Now, while I create my adventures, I really think about why a magic item is present, how it got there, who made it and why. What magic in my campaign world is commonplace and easy to acquire due to demand, and what magic is rare. I have decided that I will no longer allow my players to simply spend money and create a magic item without a process requiring proper materials and spells for creating it. I am going to make sure Ressurection is a damn impressive occurrence in my campaign.
All this will take a little work, but I think it will improve my campaigns greatly. I know the change will definitely improve my stories.
The more I think about this topic, the more I begin to understand that the reason the D&D magic system is so lacking is because it utterly without explanation. We have no idea why wizards or clerics can cast spells or why magic items work, they simply do.
I always like to use my favorite author's world as an example. In Middle Earth, magic in the elder ages is ubiquitous, yet still interesting. Magic swords, armor and spells in The Simarillion are commonplace. Magic was at an all time high, and to the elder elves, magic was so common that they didn't, and still don't, even consider it magic.
What makes this all palatable is that it is well-explained. I don't even think most players would mind ubiquitous magic as long as it was well-explained and reasonably blended into the campaign world. That is why core D&D is lacking.
I hear Tolkien cited by the low-magic people all the time, yet Tolkien's world is rife with magic. Moreso than many other worlds, though the magic isn't as spectacular or over-the-top as standar D&D. It is still very powerful and present in Tolkien's world. To the elves, magic is so commonplace so as not even to be considered magic.
I believe that ubiquitous isn't the problem either, it is the total lack of explanation for the existence of powerful magic. There are no checks and balances to limits it use and magic items are found in the lairs of monster with no real reason why they are there. We are left to assume that the monster who inhabits the lair killed some adventurer who previously possess the item.
I thank Dragonblade for starting this discussion and the others who have contributed. I have really begin to think about what was lacking with D&D's magic system. The magic system was really beginning to bog down my stories and make them utterly unbelievable. I found that it was not low or high magic or even ubiquitous magic that was the cause, but the utter lack explanation or reason why the magic worked or was present in the first place.
Now, while I create my adventures, I really think about why a magic item is present, how it got there, who made it and why. What magic in my campaign world is commonplace and easy to acquire due to demand, and what magic is rare. I have decided that I will no longer allow my players to simply spend money and create a magic item without a process requiring proper materials and spells for creating it. I am going to make sure Ressurection is a damn impressive occurrence in my campaign.
All this will take a little work, but I think it will improve my campaigns greatly. I know the change will definitely improve my stories.
Desdichado
Hero
Yet Tolkien's world isn't as rife with magic as some have made out, either. Wizards are extremely rare (apparently limited to five individuals) most people never see elves, or trolls, or anything else supernatural their entire lives.
I'd certainly say Middle-earth is low magic compared to a typical (FR, GH) D&D world. We often forget that through the Lord of the Rings we see the culmination of the most supernatural plot line the entire world sees in two ages -- roughly 6,000 years. Nothing else was anywhere near as supernatural as what was going on in the novels.
I'd certainly say Middle-earth is low magic compared to a typical (FR, GH) D&D world. We often forget that through the Lord of the Rings we see the culmination of the most supernatural plot line the entire world sees in two ages -- roughly 6,000 years. Nothing else was anywhere near as supernatural as what was going on in the novels.
Re: Re
When I mentioned the lack of "metaphysics" in DnD magic, this is what is what I was trying to say in plain English.
As I stated earlier, there are ways to add in new rules that do give DnD vanilla some flavor as well as a give the mage PC something to actualy use for "shop talk." But as it stands, DnD magic hold no wonder or awe for me at any power level.
I mean, doesn't anyone find it odd that a modern magic game like "Mage" can have the PC talking about the forces of magic and how to manipulate them for hours, and yet in the world's most popular fantasy game it's all about fireballs, damage dice and how many magic items are needed or should be banned?
Check out my second quote on this page for some rules that help you reach that goal.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52062&perpage=40&pagenumber=4
Celtavian said:
When I mentioned the lack of "metaphysics" in DnD magic, this is what is what I was trying to say in plain English.
As I stated earlier, there are ways to add in new rules that do give DnD vanilla some flavor as well as a give the mage PC something to actualy use for "shop talk." But as it stands, DnD magic hold no wonder or awe for me at any power level.
I mean, doesn't anyone find it odd that a modern magic game like "Mage" can have the PC talking about the forces of magic and how to manipulate them for hours, and yet in the world's most popular fantasy game it's all about fireballs, damage dice and how many magic items are needed or should be banned?
Check out my second quote on this page for some rules that help you reach that goal.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52062&perpage=40&pagenumber=4
Last edited:
Joshua Dyal said:
Nor after the novels. The world's magic is the biggest causualty. The scariest monsters, the Nazgul, are gone, the elves are leaving permamently and there are less wizards and trents in the world.
Oh, and Hobbits are slowly growing larger and larger as perhaps to be indistiguishable from Men.
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