D&D is not a supers game.

[Dannager]

I disagree... all over the internet, numerous 4e fans have made the claim that minions are there to make the PC's look bad ass. I honestly find it hard to believe that you haven't seen this sentiment expressed by numerous DM's who run the game... especially in the various comparisons they make between minions and action movie mooks. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I, and apparently many proponents of 4e, actually do think they are a mechanic designed to create a feeling of "super-heroics" when it comes to 4e PC's.

I agree that minions are there in part to make the PCs feel awesome, but that's not an example of "super hero" gaming. Cutting down mooks left and right during a fight is a staple of basically every fantasy franchise, ever. In fact, if you think about it, it was sort of weird that there really wasn't something along these lines earlier in D&D's history.

 

[Imaro]

I agree that minions are there in part to make the PCs feel awesome, but that's not an example of "super hero" gaming. Cutting down mooks left and right during a fight is a staple of basically every fantasy franchise, ever. In fact, if you think about it, it was sort of weird that there really wasn't something along these lines earlier in D&D's history.

Again, and this is why my argument may seem like rambling, I don't believe one mechanical aspect (in isolation) is the cause for the "super-heroic" feel many get with 4e compared to older editions. This is just one of the things I think contributes to it though. Some of the things I think contribute to it when taken as a whole...

1.) Increased hit points and durability...

2.) Minions, even with relatively high level monsters (which, the high level monster part is, contrary to your assertion above, not in line with how most fantasy literature is written.). Very few stories have a hero one-shot monsters like ogres, demons, etc. Yet they (along with the more genre common tropes of Orcs, goblins, etc.) are minions in 4e and IMO, the higher level monsters can make it feel a little over the top)

3.)The ability to rest for 8 hours and heal all hit points and healing surges

4.) Short rests and the ability to expend healing surges

5.) Powers (a naming and "feel" issue)

6.) The math, which tends to favor PC's heavily

 

[Imaro]

As a 4e player and current DM, I find minions useful for all sorts of things. They make for great additions to boss battles, especially as summoned creatures that are supposed to harass the players. They're great for representing general townfolk to aid in giving populated areas some life without having to stat out Joe the Plumber. I use them a lot to represent "swarms" of medium creatures, such as an angry mob or fanatical cultists. There are a lot of creative uses for minions, and to be honest until I read you post I never even considered using them to make players feel awesome. But maybe that is be wise I don't have those kinda of players.

That's cool, I have no issue with the fact that how I've heard others use minions isn't 100% across the board for all 4e fans. My issue arisess when I am specifically speaking to why some might view the game in a specific light... and others are more concerned with defending some kind of imaginary attack on their game (and note I haven't said the feel of 4e was a negative or a positive just different) and have to leap to the defense rather than discuss.

Once again, its important to remember that even the loud fans on the internet, even this post are merely anecdotal. There's really no way to get empirical evidence one way or the other, but perhaps the versatility of minions is something 5e should endevor to maintain. Some folks can use minions rules to feel awesome, others can use them more as I do above.

I'm not looking for empirical evidence, especially as this is a subject dealing more with feel. I was just giving some of the mechanics I've experienced with 4e that could possibly explain (when taken as a whole) why 4e may feel like a certain play experience to some folks. I'm nto arguing for the removal of minions, as has been demonstarted... they've been in every edition any way. What I do think is that the siloing of minions shouldn't be looked at in a vacum but in combination with other mechanics in the game.

 

[Obryn]

The purpose was discussing why a few/some/many people who have played 4e feel that it, in comparison to previous editions, feels more like a super hero game. I've stated this a few times in the thread. While a slight tangent to the OP's thread, it still touches on the basic premise and could lead to a better understanding of what mechanics give that type of feel... and yes it does matter how someone feels when they drop someone since that's the point.

No, you're asking two different questions. Does a game feel "superheroic"? Do you feel "cool" when dropping minions. I don't really see that the two are at all related. My players feel just as "cool" - or even moreso - when dropping big-time Elites and Solos. They also felt "cool" when they killed a bunch of rats with Burning Hands in the Next playtest. And when they dismantled a flight of giant crows when we played 1e. And when they demolished Stormtroopers in SWSE and mutants in WFRP.

So I am still not seeing where the problem is - what's wrong with players feeling "cool" for killing monsters?

2.) Minions, even with relatively high level monsters (which, the high level monster part is, contrary to your assertion above, not in line with how most fantasy literature is written.). Very few stories have a hero one-shot monsters like ogres, demons, etc. Yet they (along with the more genre common tropes of Orcs, goblins, etc.) are minions in 4e and IMO, the higher level monsters can make it feel a little over the top)

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Demons-Gord-Rogue-Gygax/dp/0425113426]Dance of Demons[/ame]

-O

 

[Dannager]

1.) Increased hit points and durability...

Ability to withstand extended punishment is a trope of the fantasy and action genres as a whole. It's not solely characteristic of the super hero genre.

2.) Minions, even with relatively high level monsters (which, the high level monster part is, contrary to your assertion above, not in line with how most fantasy literature is written.). Very few stories have a hero one-shot monsters like ogres, demons, etc. Yet they (along with the more genre common tropes of Orcs, goblins, etc.) are minions in 4e and IMO, the higher level monsters can make it feel a little over the top)

You don't fight those minions until you are high level yourself. Very few examples of fantasy media depict what could be considered high level characters. I daresay most fantasy media focuses on characters that would be best represented as heroic-tier. This isn't a super hero genre issue. It's just a matter of D&D allowing for greater power growth than most typical fantasy media tackles, and that's how it's always been.

3.)The ability to rest for 8 hours and heal all hit points and healing surges

Fast recovery is a fantasy genre trope. In addition, lengthy recovery and serious injury have a significant history in the super hero genre. And, once you've accepted that hit points don't necessarily represent physical injury, there's no disconnect to begin with.

4.) Short rests and the ability to expend healing surges

Spending five minutes for the heroes to catch their breath is now solely the purview of the super hero genre?

5.) Powers (a naming and "feel" issue)

"It feels super hero-y!" is not an argument that has any traction with me whatsoever. If you want to advance your position, you need to explain it.

6.) The math, which tends to favor PC's heavily

If the math didn't favor the PCs, 50% of games would end with a TPK in the first encounter of the campaign. The math has always favored the PCs, and always will, because the PCs are supposed to win most of the time. This is, again, a common fantasy trope. Nothing specific to the super hero genre.

"It's a super hero game!" is a hollow shell of an argument. It has no substance, and is as rhetorically valid in discussions of D&D as "4e is just like WoW!" is.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Well 3E can be pretty super heroic as well. One campaign I ran once had a fighter kill 8 or so enemy hobgoblins in one round. In one campaign, I was part of a three person party that more or less took out a whole army in a day. One rounding Dragons and liches (in other campaigns) can may you feel pretty heroic as well.

 

[Imaro]

No, you're asking two different questions. Does a game feel "superheroic"? Do you feel "cool" when dropping minions. I don't really see that the two are at all related. My players feel just as "cool" - or even moreso - when dropping big-time Elites and Solos. They also felt "cool" when they killed a bunch of rats with Burning Hands in the Next playtest. And when they dismantled a flight of giant crows when we played 1e. And when they demolished Stormtroopers in SWSE and mutants in WFRP.

So I am still not seeing where the problem is - what's wrong with players feeling "cool" for killing monsters?


Dance of Demons

-O

Emphasis mine...

And this sums up the problem... it's only a "problem" if people don't like the "feel". I didn't attach a negative conotation at all in this discussion (purposefully I might add) and yet I find 4e fans trying to force me into a position where I am portrayed as viewing 4e in a negative light... again my point was discussion and maybe understanding a different point of view. I guess alot of people just aren't interested in understanding anything, just "winning". Ok, cool you guys win, I'm done.

 

[Imaro]

"It feels super hero-y!" is not an argument that has any traction with me whatsoever. If you want to advance your position, you need to explain it.



"It's a super hero game!" is a hollow shell of an argument. It has no substance, and is as rhetorically valid in discussions of D&D as "4e is just like WoW!" is.

These are mis-characterizations of the argument. The argument isn't that "4e is a super hero game" it's that "4e feels more super-heroic than previous editions" (and I would go so far as to add the caveat that this is mainly at lower levels.).

The difference is Gilgamesh and Beowulf (Super-heroic even though they are both still fantasy) as compared to Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Jon Snow or Conan (borderline action heroes of fantasy).

EDIT: Or using a roleplaying game analogy... Exalted and Earthdawn are super heroic fantasy... Dragon Age and A Song of Ice and Fire are not, and each game has mechanics that promote a particular feel when playing it.

 

[Imaro]

Well 3E can be pretty super heroic as well. One campaign I ran once had a fighter kill 8 or so enemy hobgoblins in one round. In one campaign, I was part of a three person party that more or less took out a whole army in a day. One rounding Dragons and liches (in other campaigns) can may you feel pretty heroic as well.

See now what level was this at, because I agree that would feel super heroic. The thing is, (and this is utilizing just one of the mechanics I feel gives the same type of feel to 4e at lower levels) using minions... a 4e tempest fighter could easily kill 4 hobgoblins in a round... at first level. Now yes we understand the minion mechanic but it can give the same feel, at a much earlier level as what you described above.

 

[Imaro]

Dance of Demons

-O

Not sure what this was suppose to prove... He's high-level, and it's still not most of the fantasy literature out there...