overgeeked
B/X Known World
For all the comments and arguments that don’t belong in the meme thread.
D&D General D&D memes thread discussion…
Voadam
Legend
For the helpful metagaming one of figuring out the mechanics stuff of a monster's AC based on past hits and then rolling damage when a hit is known, this is all player and not in-character talk and I feel it is helpful in keeping things moving in that type of situation. It does not really intrude on in-character decisions, this is just describing the mechanics of the attack the character already decided on.
For the troll fire thing, that is going to be world and character specific for whether it is out of character knowledge or not. Everybody could know about D&D trolls. The campaign's trolls could be Norse based using ogre stats with no regeneration.
For the contagious zombie bite incorrect metagaming one, in D&D standard zombies rarely bite, they usually bludgeon with a slam attack (terminology varying with edition). I have over a dozen D&D sourcebooks though with nonstandard contagious zombie bites.
For the troll fire thing, that is going to be world and character specific for whether it is out of character knowledge or not. Everybody could know about D&D trolls. The campaign's trolls could be Norse based using ogre stats with no regeneration.
For the contagious zombie bite incorrect metagaming one, in D&D standard zombies rarely bite, they usually bludgeon with a slam attack (terminology varying with edition). I have over a dozen D&D sourcebooks though with nonstandard contagious zombie bites.
FrozenNorth
Hero
The last one “Psychopatic” isn’t meta-gaming. The player/character is drawing on in-world information (it doesn’t make sense for a helpless child to be wandering around the lower levels of a dungeon) to make an in-character conclusion (she is dangerous and we should attack her).
Paul Farquhar
Legend
The term "megadungeon" is probably not something that would exist in-universe. But what language are the characters speaking anyway? Does Common map one-to-one onto modern English? What if the party is speaking Elvish?
Certainly an incongruous small child in a highly dangerous location is enough to arouse suspicion in the most genre-blind.
Metagaming is surreptitiously slipping out a mobile phone to Google the answer to a riddle. That happened in one of my games.
Certainly an incongruous small child in a highly dangerous location is enough to arouse suspicion in the most genre-blind.
Metagaming is surreptitiously slipping out a mobile phone to Google the answer to a riddle. That happened in one of my games.
jmartkdr2
Hero
Honestly I think policing metagaming has done an order of magnitude more damage to my gaming experience than actual metagaming.
Especially with trolls. Trolls are just badly-designed monsters since nothing about them clues you in to what will stop the regeneration. It's not even part of the mythology of trolls outside of dnd. So the only ways to know are metagaming of various sorts:
1. You know dnd tropes so you know, but the character may or may not. You choose to metagame and cast fire bolt instead of another cantrip.
2. The pc rolls a knowledge check, which has all the normal pitfalls of gating important, let-the-game-proceed knowledge behind checks. Basically you've added an undynamic extra step to the combat.
3. You know, but don't want to metagame, so you play a weird sort of meta-meta-game where you try to figure out how many wrong guesses are enough to be "realistic"
4. You want to do #3 but the only attack cantrip you know is fire bolt so of course you'd use that but the dm accuses you of metagaming so you derail the game with an argument about whether your character would lead with their most obvious option despite the fact that it ruins the 'surprise'...
Not for nothing, most of important weaknesses in other monsters are either telegraphed or expected to be so obscure and specific that you need to research it in-game anyways. Trolls are uniquely bad as far as I know. Fire elementals being immune to fire isn't hidden information. Undead needing radiant to kill is assumed to be something anyone in that setting would try. Rakshasa aren't supposed to be known by anyone not an expert on rakshasa, but that's built into their design - you don't need a silver arrow to drive it off, just to make sure it doesn't come after you once it recovers. Even vampires are protected form the stupid meta-meta-game of trolls by the fact that players have likely heard of a dozen weaknesses that may or may not apply, so they probably are genuinely guessing (plus it's reasonable for the vampire to specifically protect themselves, and for folklore or old books to have the info.)
Especially with trolls. Trolls are just badly-designed monsters since nothing about them clues you in to what will stop the regeneration. It's not even part of the mythology of trolls outside of dnd. So the only ways to know are metagaming of various sorts:
1. You know dnd tropes so you know, but the character may or may not. You choose to metagame and cast fire bolt instead of another cantrip.
2. The pc rolls a knowledge check, which has all the normal pitfalls of gating important, let-the-game-proceed knowledge behind checks. Basically you've added an undynamic extra step to the combat.
3. You know, but don't want to metagame, so you play a weird sort of meta-meta-game where you try to figure out how many wrong guesses are enough to be "realistic"
4. You want to do #3 but the only attack cantrip you know is fire bolt so of course you'd use that but the dm accuses you of metagaming so you derail the game with an argument about whether your character would lead with their most obvious option despite the fact that it ruins the 'surprise'...
Not for nothing, most of important weaknesses in other monsters are either telegraphed or expected to be so obscure and specific that you need to research it in-game anyways. Trolls are uniquely bad as far as I know. Fire elementals being immune to fire isn't hidden information. Undead needing radiant to kill is assumed to be something anyone in that setting would try. Rakshasa aren't supposed to be known by anyone not an expert on rakshasa, but that's built into their design - you don't need a silver arrow to drive it off, just to make sure it doesn't come after you once it recovers. Even vampires are protected form the stupid meta-meta-game of trolls by the fact that players have likely heard of a dozen weaknesses that may or may not apply, so they probably are genuinely guessing (plus it's reasonable for the vampire to specifically protect themselves, and for folklore or old books to have the info.)
Oofta
Legend
In a world where monsters and teleportation exist, there's no reason to believe a child is there of their own free will. A helpless child in a dungeon is a reason for caution, but as far as the group knows they just stumbled upon a portal and don't know how to get back. Attacking without proof of danger is kind of psychopathic.
FrozenNorth
Hero
The meme is about meta-gaming, not about being sociopathic. And the example is not meta-gaming.
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Voadam
Legend
D&D Trolls with regeneration, fire vulnerability, and gangliness are straight out of Three Hearts and Three Lions. Alongside the Law, Chaos, Neutrality original alignment split, dwarves with detecting depth underground and sloping passages, and the whole D&D paladin concept archetype.
Orius
Legend
I found this one absolutely hilarious. There is no "might as well be a god" with Rad, he's an Immortal. For all intents and purposes, the Immortals are the gods of Mystara. And Rad became a god not though the standard means, no he used an ancient nuclear reactor that's slowly destroying Mystara's magic to become a god on his own terms. Mystara's like that.
Forget the tired Realms vs Greyhawk debates, Realms vs Mystara is much more interesting IMO. People bitch about the Realms being loaded down with magic and high level characters, but they're overlooking how Alphatia is ruled by a council of 1,000 36th-level magic users. I mean, you could have Elminster, Khelben, the Simbul, Alustriel, Halaster, Szass Tam, Larloch, Manshoon and anyone else I left out launch an assault on Mystara (never mind how or why they're actually working together), and Empress Eriadna would just round up her bois and smoke the lot of them without much effort, and on top of it, Glantri hasn't even gotten involved yet. (Meanwhile, true to form, Volo is sampling all best food, booze and women in Specularum, Sundsvall, Glantri City, Darokin, Thyatis City, and taking notes for his next book
. Volo's Guide to the Known World has kind of a ring to it, don't you think?)The Princess Ark makes all the skyships in Halruaa look like a fleet of skydinghies.
Ed Greenwood even wrote a Gazetteer, but how many books or boxed sets on the Realms were written by Tom Moldvay, Frank Mentzer, or Bruce Heard? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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The Glen
Legend
They did walk back the 1k 36th level wizards quite a bit. That's Alphatian propaganda now. Mainly because it didn't make any sense. Worst part of Alphatia is they are incompetent. Super high levels of magic and suffers more than anybody else with 'not my problem' syndrome. If it doesn't affect a wizard directly, they can't be bothered.
Now Thyatis, the Rome allegory, is terrifyingly competent. When they aren't self destructively corrupt.
Now Thyatis, the Rome allegory, is terrifyingly competent. When they aren't self destructively corrupt.
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