D&D monks and their lameness :)

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think there's an element of apples v oranges going on.

Many in this thread are complaining that Monks are lame because they aren't as good another class at blah or find blah blah challenging or blah blah blah is too expensive.

Whereas my view is that none of that bothers me, nor prevents me from having fun since my Monks are still effective contributors. I'm not pissed off about the amulet because I find an enchanted monk weapon to be good enough and no more expensive than anyone else's weapon, for instance.

Nowhere have I EVER claimed the Monk to be "equal to" or "better than" another class because I don't evaluate D&D classes on purely mechanical bases.

I have made the analogy in the past that a (pre-4Ed) D&D party is like a Carrier Strike Group: the Carrier (primary spellcaster) can perform nearly any combat role- often better than any other unit- but cannot perform in all roles simultaneously. This is why a CSG contains destroyers (Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, etc.), submarines (Monks, Rogues, etc.), missile cruisers & tenders (secondary casters), and so forth.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Create a 10th level character with no access to anything beyond mundane gear for every class. The spellcasters will be overpowered based on spell buffing and druids will rock with wild shape, but those all have limits. The powerhouse of the party 24/7 will be the monk. The fighter is likely to do less damage and without magical boosts to his armor class its doubtful that the monk will be the flurry of misses master. This becomes even more so in something like Pathfinder. The problem with the monk is there are just so many more ways to stack magically build your AC than there is to build your attack roll, which means the better progression of the monk is a huge advantage.

Elite array: 15/14/13/12/10/8. Two +1 stat boosts (4th, 8th) -> 16/14/14/12/10/8.

Stat arrays: Monk splits his three high stats into Str, Dex, and Wis.

This means that Monk AC: 10 + 2/3 (dex) + 2 (wis) + 2 (class) = 16/17

For comparison, the Barbarian has a +2 in dex and a 2 handed weapon. AC 16 (chain shirt)/17 (breastplate). And the Rogue likewise with a dex of 16 and studded leather/chain shirt. Or possibly a further 1 if he's gone for two weapon defence.

The fighter has AC 18 (masterwork plate) as a minimum - with potential +2 for each of dex and large shield (if he's not gone spikey chain).

Damage: The rogue wins. +5d6 blows everyone away. Leaving him to one side...

Monk damage: d10+3 (str) - 8.5/attack = - +11/+11/+6 (16 str, weapon focus or 16 dex and weapon finesse and focus).

Non-raging barbarian damage: 2d6 (2 handed sword) +4 (str 16=+3 * 1.5). Attack bonus: +14/+9 (str 16, weapon focus). Balance it with three points of power attack to bring the attack bonus down to +11 to match the monk and you do 2d6+4+6 points of damage = 17/attack at +11/+6 - clearly superior to 8.5 at +11/+11/+6. And in this case the barbarian isn't raging. And the fighter doesn't have weapon superiority/greater weapon focus as a greatweapon fighter should. In skirmish combat, the barbarian only needs to swing half as often as the monk to keep up on DPR so the monk's mobility advantage is negated.

This is without getting into the whirlwind chain tripper for the fighter.

As we've just seen, even with no magic all round the monk's damage doesn't quite keep pace with the fighter or barbarian at 10th level unless you're very generous with a broad stat array. (And with no magic, the monk's other defences suddenly become a lot less useful).

 

[Dausuul]

Just for fun, I'll throw in a 10th-level human sorceror.

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14
Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16

Spell list (disregarding 0-level) includes:

Level 1: Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, Grease, Identify
Level 2: Mirror Image, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Knock
Level 3: Fireball, Haste, Protection from Energy
Level 4: Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles
Level 5: Overland Flight

Feats, assuming no item crafting: Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Combat Casting, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)

So, she has an average 46 hit points (the monk has 58), and an AC of 16 (same as or one lower than the monk's), plus the ability to fly at speed 40, without having to spend any combat time buffing. Not as tough as the monk, but not very far behind, and a strong array of offensive, defensive, and utility magic. And she doesn't need a spellbook either.

 

[Dandu]

For a slightly different perspective... (not that Darsuul had a bad build)

Stats: Darsuul's stats will be fine for this.

Feats:
Improved Initiative, Eschew Materials, Heighten Spell, Empower Spell, Improved Familiar: Imp

Spells:
1: Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Grease, Shield, True Strike
2: Glitterdust, Alter Self, Resist Energy, Rope Trick
3: Dispel Magic, Fly, Stinking Cloud
4: Dimension Door, Enervation
5: Wall of Force

Edit: I noticed that Darsuul mentioned HP and AC, but did not mention saves. The monk has much better saves than the sorcerer. To be fair, saves are fairly important.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

First off a mage may still possess a lot of offense but without proper magical gear he is a massive glass cannon who has to hope no one pays attention to him while he does nothing but cast protective spells on himself the first few rounds.

You often only need one defensive spell. It's amazing how well Improved Invisibility or Mirror Image works against non-spellcasting opponents without special senses. (And against spellcasters, they usually need to cast at least one spell to counter, and even then, it probably won't be helping their friends.)