D&D (2024) "D&D Monster Manual 2025 is going to pack a serious punch thanks to a family of monsters descended from gods, and frankly I’m terrified"(Gamesradar)

Oofta

Legend
Supporter
That never really made sense to me. A fighter in 1e doesn’t get abilities to build a stronghold and gain followers until 9th level. Why would you retire a PC from play once you’ve gained the only ability of note that you get?

I also never read it to mean that you automatically retired, just that you could if you wanted to do so. It was also not a requirement to build a keep, it was just an option. In the rare cases where I got PCs to that level, the adventures just included things like defending your keep or having a base of operations.
 

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TiQuinn

Registered User
It goes back to D&D's wargaming roots. It's not that the character stops playing, it's that they switch to playing armies.
Fair. But it’s also weird for anyone who came afterwards because while wargaming may have been second nature to anyone playing in those really early days, and so it was assumed one would bring Chainmail or their favorite wargaming rules to the table, once D&D became its own thing, there were no actual rules for wargaming in D&D until Battlesystem in the mid 80s!

For me, it was always so weird. The game is about dungeons and fighting dragons and now you want me to pivot and make it about running a castle?! And armies?! How do I do that? Can I swap this for something cool that my fighter can do in a dungeon instead?

I still have trouble with OSR rulesets that keep this aspect of the game because to me, it’s like saying “We’re now going to play a different game altogether.”
 

Fair. But it’s also weird for anyone who came afterwards because while wargaming may have been second nature to anyone playing in those really early days, and so it was assumed one would bring Chainmail or their favorite wargaming rules to the table, once D&D became its own thing, there were no actual rules for wargaming in D&D until Battlesystem in the mid 80s!

For me, it was always so weird. The game is about dungeons and fighting dragons and now you want me to pivot and make it about running a castle?! And armies?! How do I do that? Can I swap this for something cool that my fighter can do in a dungeon instead?

I still have trouble with OSR rulesets that keep this aspect of the game because to me, it’s like saying “We’re now going to play a different game altogether.”
It's interesting in the way it gives you insight into the mind of the author, but I can't say as I ever played that way. But then I never liked what has become known as the OSR style. I feel like in 5e WotC have finally caught up with how I was playing 42 years ago.
 

We still have some missing Apex monsters; though its not clear if each creature type will have a Titan AND an Apex monster or whether some Apex monsters are the Titans:

Aberration: ?
Beast: ?...King Kong?
Celestial: Empyrean
Construct: Colossus...of some kind...Godforged?
Elemental: Elemental Juggernaut
Fey: Arch Hag...can she become a 'titan' and treat PCs like they are 'dolls' in her house?
Fiend: ?
Giant: ?...one of the Scions?
Humanoid: ?
Monstrosity: Kraken, Tarrasque
Ooze: Blob of Annihilation
Plant: ?...Mu-Spore perhaps?
Undead: Arch-Lich, Nightbringer Vampire...?
 

TravDoc42

Getting a hang of this! (he/him)
We still have some missing Apex monsters; though its not clear if each creature type will have a Titan AND an Apex monster or whether some Apex monsters are the Titans:

Aberration: ?
Beast: ?...King Kong?
Celestial: Empyrean
Construct: Colossus...of some kind...Godforged?
Elemental: Elemental Juggernaut
Fey: Arch Hag...can she become a 'titan' and treat PCs like they are 'dolls' in her house?
Fiend: ?
Giant: ?...one of the Scions?
Humanoid: ?
Monstrosity: Kraken, Tarrasque
Ooze: Blob of Annihilation
Plant: ?...Mu-Spore perhaps?
Undead: Arch-Lich, Nightbringer Vampire...?
The animal lords might be the titans of the beasts?
 


dave2008

Legend
We still have some missing Apex monsters; though its not clear if each creature type will have a Titan AND an Apex monster or whether some Apex monsters are the Titans:

Aberration: ?
Beast: ?...King Kong?
Celestial: Empyrean
Construct: Colossus...of some kind...Godforged?
Elemental: Elemental Juggernaut
Fey: Arch Hag...can she become a 'titan' and treat PCs like they are 'dolls' in her house?
Fiend: ?
Giant: ?...one of the Scions?
Humanoid: ?
Monstrosity: Kraken, Tarrasque
Ooze: Blob of Annihilation
Plant: ?...Mu-Spore perhaps?
Undead: Arch-Lich, Nightbringer Vampire...?
To be clear, Titan is a tag for a monster created by the gods. It is not necessarily about size. Both the Atropal (undead titan) and Empyrean (celestial titan) are Huge size.

1735497524351.png
 


dave2008

Legend
Possibly rules for bigger monsters in the new MM? I have experimented with various ways to do bigger creatures.
Possibly, but I highly doubt it. They had an opportunity to experiment in that arena with both Fizban's and Bigby's and didn't. I can't imagine they would take them on in the MM which doesn't a have a focus on gargantuan monsters.

PS - I use monsters in "parts" for titanic creatures
 

Staffan

Legend
It’s always been a chicken or the egg thing. People don’t play high level games because of a lack of options and opponents at high levels. But no one makes high level opponents because no one plays those levels.
It's not just because of a lack of options and opponents, but also because the game becomes wacky. Or at least, the balance changes in ways that are hard to deal with, and where just throwing bigger numbers at PCs doesn't really help. 5e makes the game math work longer on account of bounded accuracy, but it still gets weird because of strange abilities.

It works a little better in Pathfinder 2, but that comes at the cost of high-level fights feeling very much like mid-level fights with bigger numbers.
 

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