D&D (2024) "D&D Monster Manual 2025 is going to pack a serious punch thanks to a family of monsters descended from gods, and frankly I’m terrified"(Gamesradar)

[Mistwell]

Ok.


I find THAT very hard to believe... especially when more than enough people keep exploring E6, E10, E12 and other lower power game options.

I don't even know what E6, E10, and E12 are? But yeah, if you've been on this message board or Reddit's message board for the past decade discussing 5e, a top complaint was lack of higher level monsters.

You weren't meant to fight them (the gods, etc.), you know. At least, that never happened in ANY single AD&D game I participated in or heard of.

Ha, why else did you think they had complete stats? Yes we fought the Gods as kids. Everyone I knew did at some point. And Iuz. And Tiamat. And Vecna.

Now, you want to talk BECMI then fine, the "I" (Immortals) was meant to get to that level. I got there once after about four years of playing a game, and frankly it was pretty lame. It just doesn't work with the D&D mind-set IMO.


It is totally applicable! It is a vicious cycle. You have powerful monsters who can actually kick the PCs' collective butts and then PCs are made stronger, so you need stronger monsters, and so on. IT NEVER ENDS.

This version of the game has needed more powerful top end monsters from the first day it was released over a decade ago. Not much of a vicious cycle when the monster part of it never even began.

Part of the beauty of 5E and the bounded accuracy system is large numbers can, and will, eventually win (or defeat anyway) over powerful creatures (including PCs).

CR 3+ creatures, given sufficient numbers, are still viable foes well into tiers 3 and 4.

People do like to sometimes play 18+ level PCs and there are not adequate threats for those levels. They can wipe out 100 CR3 creatures with a single spell and CR3 isn't a threat even in large numbers at those levels.

Why are you so upset there are very high level threats in the new MM? Do you even play at those levels and if not, why would you care that those who do now have threats that will be challenging?

 

[Guest 7037866]

I don't even know what E6, E10, and E12 are?

E6 has been around for a LONG time. And people have been exploring the concept of other level caps, mods, etc. since 5E came out to keep it low powered.

But yeah, if you've been on this message board or Reddit's message board for the past decade discussing 5e, a top complaint was lack of higher level monsters.

Reddit? No. Here, yes, but just for a couple years. In that time, I don't hear people clamouring for more powerful high level monsters....

Ha, why else did you think they had complete stats? Yes we fought the Gods as kids. Everyone I knew did at some point. And Iuz. And Tiamat. And Vecna.

Because Gygax gave everything under the Sun complete stats???

Tiamat (MM1) wasn't a god, but a queen. I've fought that Tiamat, sure. Any other "gods", no. Period. Never happened. If you fought them as kids, I'm sure you did it wrong because most of those "gods" would have kicked your butt without a thought unless you were like 25+ level? Did you ever add the god abilities from Manual of the Planes???

This version of the game has needed more powerful top end monsters from the first day it was released over a decade ago. Not much of a vicious cycle when the monster part of it never even began.

It's an edition thing. And it already has with the power creep from 2024.

People do like to sometimes play 18+ level PCs and there are not adequate threats for those levels. They can wipe out 100 CR3 creatures with a single spell and CR3 isn't a threat even in large numbers at those levels.

Only if the DM is an idiot?

Why are you so upset there are very high level threats in the new MM? Do you even play at those levels and if not, why would you care that those who do now have threats that will be challenging?

Because it will just keep escalating--it always does--it is inevitable. Instead of getting material myself and other players can use, WotC just keeps pumping up and pumping out this "stuff". For Pete's sake, just make a single "Epic Game" book and be done with it.

Anyway, I've gripped enough. Enjoy it.

 

[Staffan]

I don't even know what E6, E10, and E12 are?

Really? I find that hard to believe. You've been here a long time, and E6 was a popular (for message board values of popular) 3e variant where PCs were capped at level 6, but kept getting feats or the equivalent every so-and-so many XP. I'm assuming E10 and E12 are similar with caps of 10 and 12 instead.

 

[Azzy]

People gonna complain just to complain. If you don't want to use these critters, don't. However, they will (hopefully) be useful to those that want them.

 

[Guest 7037866]

People gonna complain just to complain. If you don't want to use these critters, don't. However, they will (hopefully) be useful to those that want them.

You said it!

If the new MM didn't have a new critter above CR 17 people would br griping in the other direction. I'm just speaking for the vocal minority.

 

[JEB]

I'm all for more high CR titans ... but I also hope they've done more work to address the party vs 1 monster dynamic. Legendary actions and lair actions and such help, but they're still not quite enough. I'm thinking legendary monsters might need to have multiple turns per round.

Maybe they'll bring Theros' mythic monster rules into the mainline monster rules?

 

[pukunui]

Maybe they'll bring Theros' mythic monster rules into the mainline monster rules?

That would be nice. It feels like they've abandoned that mechanic.

 

[AlViking]

For monsters, we ABSOLUTELY needed that. People have been asking for stronger monsters at the higher CRs from the first day 5e came out. No idea why you'd object to that. It's probably the #1 complaint people have had for ages.



What are you talking about? We've ALWAYS had God-like monsters in the game. Deities and Demigods was in 1e AD&D for goodness sake. When have we not had God-like monsters?



I feel like you're trying to turn a "they keep upping the power of PCs to superheroes" into a monster-based argument just to repeat it, when it's not very applicable.

The Tarrasque debuted 1983 in the MMII according to reddit. We've had kaiju sized monster in DnD for a long time.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That would be nice. It feels like they've abandoned that mechanic.

I’m pretty sure there were some monsters in Van Richten’s and Fizban’s that had it. Have newer books (Bigby’s) not included it?

 

[CM]

I've been a little surprised at the lack of MM interviews/articles/previews compared to the PHB and DMG. Maybe they're waiting until January.