D&D (2024) D&D Monster Manual (2025)

[UngeheuerLich]

Oh not trained archers....guys with +0 dex, +0 attack. No training in the shortbow, just enough to fire the thing. 500 schlubs with barebones equipment take out an Immortal titan from like the dawn of creation.

I get that 5e intentionally made it where high end threats were much more vulnerable to masses of guys than older editions, so part of that is just setting your expectations in line with the system. that's why I'm wouldn't asking for like invulnerability to regular weapons or anything like that. Just a little regeneration so that the guy can strategically retreat from the army and then hit another spot at full strength....rather than have to go "well guess I just have to leave this plane those little arrows are real scary".

Ok. That is a function of how crits work.

The easiest solution is to just removing the ability to crit from random unproficient mobs. Or general mobs.

Actually mob rules don't call out crits. So RAW there is no line in the mob rules that has 21 or higher as target number.

So going by that none of the archers do damage at all.

If you say a 20 always hits, if you have 2 packs of 10, 2 are hitting by the rules... Which equals a crit.

I think the spirit of the rules is just say: if they don't have a +2 to hit and no disadvantage, no hits.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok. That is a function of how crits work.

The easiest solution is to just removing the ability to crit from random unproficient mobs. Or general mobs.

Actually mob rules don't call out crits. So RAW there is no line in the mob rules that has 21 or higher as target number.

So going by that none of the archers do damage at all.

If you say a 20 always hits, if you have 2 packs of 10, 2 are hitting by the rules... Which equals a crit.

I think the spirit of the rules is just say: if they don't have a +2 to hit and no disadvantage, no hits.

Ultimately it is trivial to just say "well a mob is just not going to do anything to the Titan" no matter what the mechanics actually say....and you could certainly argue that is the game's intention. Afterall it does the same thing for economies, basically going "this is not an eco simulator, don't treat it like one".

I personally prefer a bit more mechanical stamina than that (the old Empyrean was immune to non-magical damage, so this wasn't even a conversation), and so would have liked something in the stat block for the Empyrean to hold up against the hordes without folding like a lawn chair unless I invoke DM fiat....but as I said when I started this conversation, it is a nitpick at best. At the end of the day it won't come up very often.

Now, would my players try to recruit a large army to held them against such a creature.....ABSOLUTELY (and have in previous games). I mean to me that's just part an parcel with being a 15+ level person...at that point everyone owes you a favor. But I would just easily rule some trivial amount of damage that such an army would generate....enough that the players fee like they got something but not enough to take them away as the stars of the show.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Dungeons & Dragons (@dndbeyond.com)

Go big AND go home.

bsky.app

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Ultimately it is trivial to just say "well a mob is just not going to do anything to the Titan" no matter what the mechanics actually say....and you could certainly argue that is the game's intention. Afterall it does the same thing for economies, basically going "this is not an eco simulator, don't treat it like one".

I personally prefer a bit more mechanical stamina than that (the old Empyrean was immune to non-magical damage, so this wasn't even a conversation), and so would have liked something in the stat block for the Empyrean to hold up against the hordes without folding like a lawn chair unless I invoke DM fiat....but as I said when I started this conversation, it is a nitpick at best. At the end of the day it won't come up very often.

Now, would my players try to recruit a large army to held them against such a creature.....ABSOLUTELY (and have in previous games). I mean to me that's just part an parcel with being a 15+ level person...at that point everyone owes you a favor. But I would just easily rule some trivial amount of damage that such an army would generate....enough that the players fee like they got something but not enough to take them away as the stars of the show.

I rather feel mechanics should be robust enough to handle such situations, and to me it feel questionable for GM fiat to just overrule clear rules. If the rules say that 500 archers can take down a titanic godspawn, then it is reasonable for players to assume that this would work and go recruit such a force. If we don't want such creatures to be killable such ways, then their statblock should provide a defence against it or the base rules should function differently.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ultimately it is trivial to just say "well a mob is just not going to do anything to the Titan" no matter what the mechanics actually say....and you could certainly argue that is the game's intention. Afterall it does the same thing for economies, basically going "this is not an eco simulator, don't treat it like one".

Agreed.

I personally prefer a bit more mechanical stamina than that (the old Empyrean was immune to non-magical damage, so this wasn't even a conversation), and so would have liked something in the stat block for the Empyrean to hold up against the hordes without folding like a lawn chair unless I invoke DM fiat....but as I said when I started this conversation, it is a nitpick at best. At the end of the day it won't come up very often.

Agreed.
Im 2014 I really wondered why the Tarrasque did not have regeneration anymore... when it traditionally had.
In play, regeneration is an annoying ability, because you need to do way more math than anyway, so I understand the intend.
I would have prefered damage tresholds.

Regeneration also does not do the trick. 10 or 20 regeneration does not stop a mob from reducing HP steadily.

I guess most monsters had damage immunity to p/b/s so mobs don't damage them. That is now lost. But I guess designers thought that removing it is better than always having to write everywhere that characters that don't use weapons can bypass it somehow.

Maybe the easiest rule would be:

Legendary creatures can't be damaged by Players or Creatures of a level/CR that is less than half their own CR.

Done. All super monsters have plot armor.

Now, would my players try to recruit a large army to held them against such a creature.....ABSOLUTELY (and have in previous games). I mean to me that's just part an parcel with being a 15+ level person...at that point everyone owes you a favor. But I would just easily rule some trivial amount of damage that such an army would generate....enough that the players fee like they got something but not enough to take them away as the stars of the show.

Agreed.

 

[Remathilis]

Dungeons & Dragons (@dndbeyond.com)

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bsky.app

Ooh. Nice

 

[Reynard]

Dungeons & Dragons (@dndbeyond.com)

Go big AND go home.

bsky.app

Cool. I wonder if there's a sample map on the facing page.

 

[mamba]

If we don't want such creatures to be killable such ways, then their statblock should provide a defence against it or the base rules should function differently

so give it immunity to non-magical weapons, DM fiat is a thing

 

[abirdcall]

New Empyrean seems a noticeable boost from the old version. The new auto stun is neat as is the choice to take more damage and not be stunned. I think most characters of a high enough level to fight this guy will almost always take the damage....but if its two hits together....yeah I might take the stun over 42 extra damage just depends on which character gets hit.

Also noting he got a massive boost to his Int and Cha saving throws, so you can no longer take this guy out with a gimme banishment or something like that.

Honestly the only thing for me that missing (and its a minor thing) is some basic like Regeneration 10 kind of thing (or even just cure wounds as an at-will). It basically has no impact to the actual combat against high level characters, but to me it helps reinforce the power of these extremely high CR threats.

Even 500 completely untrained archers with shortbows can do about a quarter of the empyreans health in a single round. Now he likely can move away...but the damage is technically permanent until maybe a 1 hour short rest, and so you could see even a rag tag army actually chasing away one of these epic threats. But even just a bit a regen, and yeah he moves away for a few minuts, and comes back and full strength. Gives a lot more credence as to why you need heroes to beat these kinds of threats rather than just ragtag armies.

The rules are explicitly written from the POV of use in a typical D&D game of a few PCs.

For me, something like cure wounds in the stat block is a distraction and I would just say they have it if it came up.

I don't want monsters with a list of 20 spells they can cast.

 

[TravDoc42]

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