D&D needs to grow up

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Why are killing, horror, nasty/brutish/short lives, blood, dead bodies, poverty/misery, and "winning the day and living far too long to fight another day" what you consider "adult"?

Can't a reasonable adult have no interest in these things?

 

[Treebore]

I find it funny how people seem to think its a given that "grim and gritty" and "high fantasy" are mutually exclusive. I have ran plenty of high level D&D campaigns where my players felt it was very "grim and gritty", and since I kept all the spells, etc... it was definitely still high fantasy too.


Maybe we just define "grim and gritty" the wrong way? To us its fighting for your life and the life of others, against incredible odds, suffering greatly, and dying somewhat frequently.

I can only guess being raised form the dead somehow negates all that?

 

[Doug McCrae]

I find it funny how people seem to think its a given that "grim and gritty" and "high fantasy" are mutually exclusive. I have ran plenty of high level D&D campaigns where my players felt it was very "grim and gritty", and since I kept all the spells, etc... it was definitely still high fantasy too.

There are, as the name suggests, two aspects to grim n' gritty. Grim means dark, gritty means realistic. High level D&D can be the former, but not the latter. All the magic flying around makes it very unlike the real world. Characters travel to other planes, regrow limbs, come back from the dead, etc, etc. There's a notable paucity of these things in real life.

High fantasy is about good versus evil, magic swords, dragons, quests, battling your evil half-brother inside a volcano cause he's trying to destroy the world, all that jazz. It's definitely not gritty and it isn't usually grim though it could be if your half-brother wins. Elric AKA Norse brand high fantasy is grim, doom-laden stuff.

I can only guess being raised form the dead somehow negates all that?

Well, yeah.

 

[Asmor]

I disagree. D&D is at just the right point.

It sounds to me like you should try something else, like say Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying.

Believe it or not, D&D has its own identity, and sticking to that identity is perfectly okay. There are lots of games that explore other themes and genres.

 

[pukunui]

Yet I see no blood. I see no dead bodies.

You obviously haven't looked in the 4e PHB. If you've got one, crack it open to the Rituals chapter heading on pp 296-297 and have a look at the artwork there. If that's not blood and a dead body, then I must be hallucinating.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I've done grim and gritty, both in Warhammer and in D&D, and high magic grim and gritty is possible, I dispute that gritty is real world realistic, in my book gritty = dangerous, grim = dark, the good guys are loosing.
By default D&D have never been grim ro gritty but that is not to say that you cannot have a high magic or a low magic grim and gritty setting. I am sure that they are out there. I have never played in them, but Dark Sun sounds pretty grim and gritty from anything i have read about it and for that matter what about the Midnight setting.
That said, I have no longer any interest in such a setting, I am quite happy in the worlds of high fantasy, and I don't see anything unadult about it.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm fine with D&D not being gritty. I wouldn't mind other settings that were more gritty though. Take good ol' Dark Sun, where players' first weapons were made from the cracked bones of the first dead thing they found

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Well, speaking as a 34-year-old who's watched several people who I was very attached to die, and whom I still miss years later, and who's been kicked in the teeth by life in various other ways a few dozen times, I can say that I don't particularly relish depictions of misery or excessive gore.

I'm gaming to forget my troubles and unpleasant experiences. In other words, if violence is depicted, I want just enough to suggest "action" -- 'heroism' -- that type of thing. I don't particularly want a disembowelling or a starving beggar on every page, thanks.

My opinion, of course, but then again, what isn't opinion in a matter like this?

 

[Psion]

Life in any D&D setting should be nasty, brutish and short. The artwork, fiction and setting material should reflect that. Currently it's PG or PG-13 at best and that just doesn't cut it anymore.

Put me down as not wanting this.

If the future of D&D is trying to be edgy, gritty, and otherwise IMO tasteless in a vain attempt to seem "mature", it's a future I don't want to be involved with. And if that makes it a game for the kids, I'll play with the kids.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis.

- Psion, pushing 40.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Sure there are nasty looking monsters and there is plenty of artwork showing "heroes" battling "evil". Yet I see no blood. I see no dead bodies. I see no poverty or misery. I see too many heroes winning the day and living far too long to fight another day.

But adding this won't make it more "adult".

Being more adult is being more mature, dealing with such things before they arise. Dead bodies are not a part of being "adult", it's the consequence of failure. Blood means something has gone horribly wrong.

More adult means being about themes like community, family, hope, responsibility, compassion, and reason.

Cheers, LT.