D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

[FitzTheRuke]

I've been playing the new Spelljammer with my F2F group for five sessions now. We've spent the whole time in WildSPACE, flying around in the void. We haven't hit the Astral Sea yet, which is more the fantasy equivalent of sci-fi "warp speed" (except that you have to fly to the extent of your WildSPACE System (the "shores" of the Astral Sea) first before sailing off into it to get to another WildSPACE System).

Heck, if it really matters to your DM, they could put a crystal barrier there!

 

[Haplo781]

No of course not. I am hardly going to give WotC money for doing something I disapprove of, am I? Nonetheless I know what is in it.


You do not get to tell anyone else what they are allowed to find meaningful.


Yes, whatever could I possibly be talking about. Oh look, it's right there in almost your very next sentence (bolding mine, italics yours):



I'm fine with anyone who wants to (of any age) playing this. I am also fine with anyone who wants to (of any age) playing Spelljammer as published in the 90s. I just do not understand why they needed to use the name of the latter for the former. But by all means, impugn my character because I do not happen to like WotC's latest shiny!

Please explain to me how the Phlogiston is "space" in any meaningful way that doesn't also apply to the Astral Sea.

Explain it like I'm five.

 

[Haplo781]

Believing a vegan diet would cure his cancer? There are good reasons to adopt or maintain a vegan diet; that generally isn't one of them. (Full disclosure: I used to be vegan, and I also used to work for Steve Jobs. Coincidence?)

In any case, hit points ≠ hands.

Even worse, it was a fruitarian diet. Which is literally the worst diet for pancreatic cancer.

 

[darjr]

@Haplo781 my comment was about Dragon Magazine. WotC did say they had plans. No idea what though.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

correct, and if that was the only justicication I put forward you would have a point. BUT since I have twice in this thread and at least a dozen times this year on enworld wrote flavor text for how every stat (I do still fall down on CON though) can be justified your argument is either 1) Not paying attention or 2) activly not addressing the conversation.

Okay so lets go back to
"I hit hard and know how to leverage my power" Str
"I maneuver quickly and agily" Dex
- Skip con others have really good ones but I struggle with it
"I have trained in knowing fighting styles as long as the wizard has to use magic, I know every form" Int
"I am perseptive and can find the right place to put my blows, and yes even rocks have vunerable spots" Wis
"I flourish and distract and through force of my overwhelming personality guide my strike" Cha

the fact that all 6 attacks look diffrent is MORE flavorful (IMO)

Con -- I wear you down, counting on my endurance to outlast you. Blow after blow unrelenting until it gets through or you loose concentration for one second.

Not the hardest hitter but can keep at you.

I do agree though -- making these tied to ability scores is like making schools of magic tied to ability scores. Like your DCs and even ability to take X level spells are tied to high scores.

 

[Haplo781]

@Haplo781 my comment was about Dragon Magazine. WotC did say they had plans. No idea what though.

Yeah I quoted you by accident.

 

[glass]

It is past time for you to consider the possibility that folks have honest opinions about the material, rather than a "party line".

I am going to quote myself here.

I'm fine with anyone who wants to (of any age) playing this. I am also fine with anyone who wants to (of any age) playing Spelljammer as published in the 90s. I just do not understand why they needed to use the name of the latter for the former

People playing the game, and enjoying it, I have no issues with. Even if it is things I would not prefer myself. But if their opinion that I should not prefer what I prefer, then I do not care how "honestly" they came by it.

The "party line" comment was more aimed at the notion that I am not allowed to be disappointed with the new Spelljammer because I have not bought it. Of course I haven't bought it! I do not go out and buy products I know are not what I want.

So, let us try this - what is more meaningful to the setting: The presence of crystal spheres and phlogiston, or the types of stories you get from playing

I do not believe they are easily separable. One informs the other.

Clipping the sentence in order to remove additional context is very poor form. You left out the references to stars, the heavens, Widspace, a silvery void, hopping between worlds. Sounds pretty darn space-y to me.

I clipped the bits that were not relevant to my point. Yes, wildspace is pretty spacey, but to actually go anywhere you have to leave wildspace and, crucially, travel to another plane. Anyway, given the size of dogpile trying to bludgeon me into submission, it is simply not practical to post every post in its entirety even if I wanted to.

Plus which, giving me stick for only only quoting the relevant portions of posts and then, in the very next post, clipping my post down to literally two words is, as you put it, "poor form".

No, the only inaccurate bit I see in this thread is your claim that because they refer to the Astral Plane, it means it has nothing to do with space, despite all of the other things they also refer to which make it very clear it is to do with space.

Lucky I did not claim that, then. I claimed, accurately, that space travel has been replaced by astral travel as the main way of getting to far-off places. EDIT: Admittedly in a slightly hyperbolic way, initially.

Please explain to me how the Phlogiston is "space" in any meaningful way that doesn't also apply to the Astral Sea.

The phlogiston is not another plane. You may not find that "meaningful", but I do (to the extent that anything about an elfgame is meaningful - we are not curing cancer here). And see my earlier comment to Umbran about other people policing what I am allowed to find meaningful.

---

Please, please stop trying to convince me that I am wrong to be disappointed in the new "Spelljammer". To reiterate, if you like it, great! Go have fun with it! But stop telling me that I am wrong to be disappointed - the new Spelljammer is different from the old Spelljammer in a pretty fundamental way, and I preferred the original version. My preferences are my preferences, and nether logical argument nor bullying are going to change them. De gustibus non est disputandum.

Please. No more.

 

[darjr]

never mind. Not worth it.

 

[Fifth Element]

I clipped the bits that were not relevant to my point. Yes, wildspace is pretty spacey, but to actually go anywhere you have to leave wildspace and, crucially, travel to another plane. Anyway, given the size of dogpile trying to bludgeon me into submission, it is simply not practical to post every post in its entirety even if I wanted to.

You made a claim that they left out the "in space" bit, so references to space things are clearly relevant, but you left them out. That's the difference - choosing to respond to only one particular thing someone says is not at all equivalent to cutting out context from a quote when that context argues against the point you're attempting to make.

Lucky I did not claim that, then. I claimed, accurately, that space travel has been replaced by astral travel as the main way of getting to far-off places.

That's a distinction without a difference. The "Astral Plane" now essentially means "space." Space is effectively a different plane than Earth, after all. The environment is entirely different, one cannot survive there without special preparations being made, etc. etc. Heck, it's the ASTRAL plane even. Astral refers to stars. Not exactly a stretch.

You can choose to not like that change, but the way you have described it as removing space from the setting is inaccurate.

Please, please stop trying to convince me that I am wrong to be disappointed in the new "Spelljammer". To reiterate, if you like it, great! Go have fun with it! But stop telling me that I am wrong to be disappointed

Here you manage to misrepresent both what you said and what other people said. You did not merely say you were disappointed in the new Spelljammer. (No quotes, of course, since WotC owns that IP and can do whatever they please with it). You provided reasons, on a discussion forum, some of which are misrepresentations of it. So the fact that people are discussing your claims, here on a discussion forum, in order to explain whey they are misrepresentations, should be entirely expected. You're not a victim here. You made some claims that are invalid, and people have explained why.

The bolded part above is a pretty vile misrepresentation of what people have been saying in response to your claims.

nor bullying

And this is also a pretty vile misrepresentation of what people have been saying.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Folks, the poster has said "Please. No more".

With this, we should drop it. Everyone. Just let it go now. So long as they leave it be, everyone should leave it be. Understood? If not, please take it to PM with the moderator of your choice.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Con -- I wear you down, counting on my endurance to outlast you. Blow after blow unrelenting until it gets through or you loose concentration for one second.

Not the hardest hitter but can keep at you.

I do agree though -- making these tied to ability scores is like making schools of magic tied to ability scores. Like your DCs and even ability to take X level spells are tied to high scores.

yeah I am very sure you can justfy Rocky being a Con attack boxer useing this.

 

[Oofta]

yeah I am very sure you can justfy Rocky being a Con attack boxer useing this.

This:

is not the image of a boxer with minimal strength. A boxer that has a high strength used to attack and a high constitution to survive a beating while probably dumping intelligence and wisdom? It's a great example of a common trope. But primarily con based? Nah.


Now this guy would have qualified if he had won any fights:

Except he didn't win any fights until he became:

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This: View attachment 261834
is not the image of a boxer with minimal strength.

so would you say being able to lift and carry all day 8x15lbs (120lbs) is 'minimal' or the ability to push/pull drag 240lbs? does anyone remember the montogies... how much does he do?
Nobody (not I or anyone else) said dump str... but Con higher... heck with the defualt array that can be a 12 str ( so carry 180lbs all day and push pull 360 more then handles the training that I had to go look up)

Gonna fly now

It's the best part of every Rocky movie: The training montage. Ever since a young Sylvester Stallone chugged five eggs and huffed his way through the streets of

www.mensjournal.com

A boxer that has a high strength used to attack and a high constitution to survive a beating while probably dumping intelligence and wisdom? It's a great example of a common trope. But primarily con based? Nah.

why? again, con is your health and body mass... it seems to me to be at least equal important to Strength.

Now this guy would have qualified if he had won any fights: View attachment 261835
Except he didn't win any fights until he became: View attachment 261836

and even this... in the first picture what would you rate his str score as? a 3 allows you to carry 45lbs all day or lift/pull/drag 90lbs... that puts a str of 3 just about my medical limit.

What part of "there is NO character in D&D by the rules that isn't strong" do you not get?

Heck, according to official Marvel Database, Captain America's full limits of strength is lifting up to 1,200 lbs with maximum effort, which gives him the ability to knock out Thunderball who possessed superhuman durability and also lift merge hulk. It's enhanced strength, but not at the superhuman level. Super Solider?

so the second pic needs to be able to lift 1,200lbs... that is a Str score about 40. so the first pic being a 1 (15lbs lift and carry 30lbs push/pull) or 2 (30lbs lift and carry 60lbs push/pull) and the second being a 40 means BOTH are unreachable by the rules..


If on the other hand you told someone the picture of pre SSS Steve (a lot of Ss) was a str 10 and after was a str 18 most would beleive that... but again that would mean before the serum he would lift 150lbs and carry it all day or push/pull 300lbs and after he could only carry 270lbs and push pull 540lbs

 

[GMforPowergamers]

so would you say being able to lift and carry all day 8x15lbs (120lbs) is 'minimal' or the ability to push/pull drag 240lbs? does anyone remember the montogies... how much does he do?
Nobody (not I or anyone else) said dump str... but Con higher... heck with the defualt array that can be a 12 str ( so carry 180lbs all day and push pull 360 more then handles the training that I had to go look up)

Gonna fly now

It's the best part of every Rocky movie: The training montage. Ever since a young Sylvester Stallone chugged five eggs and huffed his way through the streets of

www.mensjournal.com

why? again, con is your health and body mass... it seems to me to be at least equal important to Strength.

Rocky obvusly needs Con, Str and Dex, but I would argue Cha as well... if we say he is a 4th level character we can give him an ASI and make him varriant human for Tavern Brawler...

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.

Variant Human​

Source: Player's Handbook

• Ability Score Increase. Two different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
• Skills. You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
• Feat. You gain one Feat of your choice.

so 12 Str 13 Dex 15 Con 8 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha with 2 +1s then +1 str or con (con) a +2 for 12 Str 14 Dex 19 Con 8 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha sounds good to me and make unarmed strikes as a Con attack would be +6 1d4+4 with it ALMOST being maxed...

with that str he can carry all day 180lbs and push/pull/drag 360lbs... and run up steps. Now I would probalby make him a barbarian not so much for rage (although the Resit would help) but for the d12's HD and unarmerd defense... that would give him and AC 16

 

[Oofta]

so would you say being able to lift and carry all day 8x15lbs (120lbs) is 'minimal' or the ability to push/pull drag 240lbs? does anyone remember the montogies... how much does he do?
Nobody (not I or anyone else) said dump str... but Con higher... heck with the defualt array that can be a 12 str ( so carry 180lbs all day and push pull 360 more then handles the training that I had to go look up)

Gonna fly now

It's the best part of every Rocky movie: The training montage. Ever since a young Sylvester Stallone chugged five eggs and huffed his way through the streets of

www.mensjournal.com

why? again, con is your health and body mass... it seems to me to be at least equal important to Strength.

and even this... in the first picture what would you rate his str score as? a 3 allows you to carry 45lbs all day or lift/pull/drag 90lbs... that puts a str of 3 just about my medical limit.

What part of "there is NO character in D&D by the rules that isn't strong" do you not get?

Heck, according to official Marvel Database, Captain America's full limits of strength is lifting up to 1,200 lbs with maximum effort, which gives him the ability to knock out Thunderball who possessed superhuman durability and also lift merge hulk. It's enhanced strength, but not at the superhuman level. Super Solider?

so the second pic needs to be able to lift 1,200lbs... that is a Str score about 40. so the first pic being a 1 (15lbs lift and carry 30lbs push/pull) or 2 (30lbs lift and carry 60lbs push/pull) and the second being a 40 means BOTH are unreachable by the rules..


If on the other hand you told someone the picture of pre SSS Steve (a lot of Ss) was a str 10 and after was a str 18 most would beleive that... but again that would mean before the serum he would lift 150lbs and carry it all day or push/pull 300lbs and after he could only carry 270lbs and push pull 540lbs

Sylvester Stallone is obviously very strong. Constitution is a fighter's secondary attribute already. His punches pack a wallop because he's strong (and because of his training). He takes a lot of hits because he has a lot of HP. In D&D Rocky can easily be represented by a high strength, a high con and likely the tough feat for even more HP. No need to change the rules. He's not a fighter that relies primarily on constitution, that trope doesn't really exist that I know of other than you insisting it does.

As far as accuracy of D&D rules, I never said they were accurate. However complaining about what strength means is just a red herring and has nothing to do with how you would represent Rocky in the game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sylvester Stallone is obviously very strong.

how strong? is strength higher then his cha or con?

Constitution is a fighter's secondary attribute already.

okay

His punches pack a wallop because he's strong (and because of his training).

I would argue that they don't stories of him hitting people on set don't show him hurting anyone but when 'the russian' hit him for real he broke ribs.

He's not a fighter that relies primarily on constitution, that trope doesn't really exist that I know of other than you insisting it does.

TBH I said con was the HARDEST to justify... it was someone else that brought up this justification and you are jumping at it to argue and 'prove' it wrong some how... Str Dex and Con are not 3 independent things in the real world and they are not in most fiction, they are in D&D... nothing says 1 needs to be the attack stat over the others... and as I have shown Wis and Int make as much sense (I think cha is pushing it but is easier to argue from tropes then con)

As far as accuracy of D&D rules, I never said they were accurate. However complaining about what strength means is just a red herring and has nothing to do with how you would represent Rocky in the game.

again YOU are the one arguing about some 'weak' character not 'looking' right, not I

Edit: I notice a bit of dishonesty here... your argument WAS that someone that looked like rocky could not have a low str score... when I showed that not to be the case you said

As far as accuracy of D&D rules, I never said they were accurate.

but if that's the case why argue that you have some accurate accounting we do not about what str score looks like?
Can you find ANY rule that says a 20str character can't look like what ever they want, what about an 8 (and don't be dishonest 8-20 is the standard allowable deviation)

 

[Oofta]

how strong? is strength higher then his cha or con?

okay

I would argue that they don't stories of him hitting people on set don't show him hurting anyone but when 'the russian' hit him for real he broke ribs.

TBH I said con was the HARDEST to justify... it was someone else that brought up this justification and you are jumping at it to argue and 'prove' it wrong some how... Str Dex and Con are not 3 independent things in the real world and they are not in most fiction, they are in D&D... nothing says 1 needs to be the attack stat over the others... and as I have shown Wis and Int make as much sense (I think cha is pushing it but is easier to argue from tropes then con)

again YOU are the one arguing about some 'weak' character not 'looking' right, not I

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I'm saying is that Rocky could easily be represented by current D&D rules. High strength and con. Whether or not D&D rules are particularly accurate is another story.

Rocky is not basing his attacks and damage on con which is what my understanding of your statement

yeah I am very sure you can justfy Rocky being a Con attack boxer useing this.

If he were a "con attack boxer" there's no reason he could not look like:

Which obviously he does not and I can't imagine anyone accepting that as the image of a boxer.

P.S. strength has little to do with constitution in the real world, although there is usually a correlation between overall physical fitness.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I'm saying is that Rocky could easily be represented by current D&D rules. High strength and con. Whether or not D&D rules are particularly accurate is another story.

and yet I provided an explanation for a diffrent take that you seem to miss.

Rocky is not basing his attacks and damage on con which is what my understanding of your statement

my statement is the game will balance better and we can pull examples that we can use from tropes... We can get more varied stats if we reward putting stats in other places (as opposed to punish)

When I started playing D*D all melee attacks were str I argued all the time Dex should matter more, 6ish years later they let you spend a resource to use dex with some weapons, then after another 12ish years just made some weapons use what ever is better.

If he were a "con attack boxer" there's no reason he could not look like:
View attachment 261844

okay if the player used this picture what stops them from having an 18 str? What is wrong with this being a competent warrior if that is what the player wants?

Which obviously he does not

who does not? That isn't rocky nor did I or anyone suggest it was.

and I can't imagine anyone accepting that as the image of a boxer.

why not? do you not know there are light and heavy weights? Would you except that picture as lifting 150lbs and carrying it all day without tiring? what about push..pull/draging 300lbs? cause if not you are saying that ISN'T a str 10 (and I think I gave rocky a 12)

P.S. strength has little to do with constitution in the real world, although there is usually a correlation between overall physical fitness.

again strength constitution and dexterity are not 3 separate things in real world, at least not like they are in D&D. it's why weight lifting doesn't make you a good boxer, but dance classes might.
in the real world training trumps all and stamina and will power aide more in training then strength.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Rocky is not basing his attacks and damage on con which is what my understanding of your statement

this needs to be pulled out especially... Rocky isn't using strength dexterity constitution or charisma because he is instead using the script.

if making a character BASED on rocky in D&D I could argue for strength dexterity constitution or charisma attacks making sense.

 

[Sacrosanct]

If we're talking about Rocky, he's clearly a barbarian, because when he goes into his rage, the damage resistance is obvious. Prior to "this moment", he always gets beaten down. Then his mental flip gets flipped, and it seems like punches only do half damage to him from that point on.