D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

Oofta

Legend
and yet I provided an explanation for a diffrent take that you seem to miss.

my statement is the game will balance better and we can pull examples that we can use from tropes... We can get more varied stats if we reward putting stats in other places (as opposed to punish)

When I started playing D*D all melee attacks were str I argued all the time Dex should matter more, 6ish years later they let you spend a resource to use dex with some weapons, then after another 12ish years just made some weapons use what ever is better.



okay if the player used this picture what stops them from having an 18 str? What is wrong with this being a competent warrior if that is what the player wants?

who does not? That isn't rocky nor did I or anyone suggest it was.

why not? do you not know there are light and heavy weights? Would you except that picture as lifting 150lbs and carrying it all day without tiring? what about push..pull/draging 300lbs? cause if not you are saying that ISN'T a str 10 (and I think I gave rocky a 12)

again strength constitution and dexterity are not 3 separate things in real world, at least not like they are in D&D. it's why weight lifting doesn't make you a good boxer, but dance classes might.
in the real world training trumps all and stamina and will power aide more in training then strength.
I'm not going to argue about the 8 int genius or the guy who obviously has no muscle mass having an 18 strength. I've explained why I think having con as an attack stat for a martial fighter type makes no sense to me. Feel free to disagree.

Strength, con and dexterity are different thing in the game, which is all I care about. I'd also argue that they are very different things in the real world as well. A steroided out body builder can be very unhealthy, I've known people that were very strong but had low dex and vice versa. In the real world acrobats have to have a pretty good strength in addition to dexterity but that's just an example of D&D's oversimplification of reality.

But I'm not going to address the accuracy of D&D, nor am I going to bother responding to the red herrings.
 

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I'm not going to argue about the 8 int genius or the guy who obviously has no muscle mass having an 18 strength.
again... you seem to not understand strength (and I don't know where you got 8 int genius from other then your strawman files) YOU CAN"T BE WEAK IN 5e... you also can't be a strong as an Olympic lifter without magic, but that is a different argument.
Str 8 (the lowest you get by default array) is stronger then human average in the real world.
I've explained why I think having con as an attack stat for a martial fighter type makes no sense to me. Feel free to disagree.
yet here we are again with you saying "I don't like it so shut up" and I am sick of it.
Strength, con and dexterity are different thing in the game, which is all I care about.
glad to know... this changes what?
I'd also argue that they are very different things in the real world as well.
they are not, they are all types of muscle and health...
A steroided out body builder can be very unhealthy,
and a steroided body builder that is unhealthy without training is going to get his but kicked in most street fights... strength in the real world doesn't help you hit better,
I've known people that were very strong but had low dex and vice versa.
no you didn't... because those scores are not real they are game abstractions... you may know strong clutzy people but that doesn't equate to the D&D stats.
But I'm not going to address the accuracy of D&D, nor am I going to bother responding to the red herrings.
no red herrigns... a suggestion to improve the game... let all the stats be attack stats (with fluff to match) maybe even give some creatures (PC NPC Monsters) resistance or vulnerability to types of attacks
 

Imaro

Legend
no red herrigns... a suggestion to improve the game... let all the stats be attack stats (with fluff to match) maybe even give some creatures (PC NPC Monsters) resistance or vulnerability to types of attacks

So how do you balance this? In other words...Why would I ever be a Str primary fighter when the other physical stats give me either more hit points or better AC?
 



Hussar

Legend
This: View attachment 261834
is not the image of a boxer with minimal strength. A boxer that has a high strength used to attack and a high constitution to survive a beating while probably dumping intelligence and wisdom? It's a great example of a common trope. But primarily con based? Nah.


Now this guy would have qualified if he had won any fights: View attachment 261835
Except he didn't win any fights until he became: View attachment 261836

Why does my character need to satisfy your tastes?

If I play a Con fighter and I’m happy about it, why should you get the slightest say about it?
 

Oofta

Legend
Why does my character need to satisfy your tastes?

If I play a Con fighter and I’m happy about it, why should you get the slightest say about it?
To be clear. I want martial characters to fit the accepted imagery and depictions of people that rely on a combination of physical capability (strength and/or dex) combined with training. I think it works best for D&D in general, not just my personal preference.

If you want to discuss further in another thread feel free.
 

glass

(he, him)
Challenging moderation
Nice dilemma you have left me there @Umbran: Making mod protection contingent on not posting again, after a vicious post that I would obviously feel the need to respond to. I have been going back and forth with myself all morning how to deal that, and I guess you can see where I landed; I asked for "no more", not "one more brutal attack post".

You made a claim that they left out the "in space" bit, so references to space things are clearly relevant, but you left them out.
If the claim was meant to be taken literally rather than being slightly hyperbolic, that would certainly be true. And you might genuinely have missed the hyperbole the first time around (people talking past each other on the Internet is hardly unheard of). But I helpfully clarified what I meant here:
Yes, wildspace is pretty spacey, but to actually go anywhere you have to leave wildspace and, crucially, travel to another plane.
I would have clarified sooner, but frankly it did not occur to me until this morning that the hyperbole might not have been as obvious to anyone else as it was to me. That's my mistake; I could have been clearer (and I have now edited my earlier post to make it abundantly clear). Of course, by keeping up the increasingly vicious attacks even after that clarification, you make that initial good faith seem less likely and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has long since left the building.

In the interests of clarity, let take a look at the "relevant bits" I left out:
Home of the stars and gateway to the heavens, the Astral Plane teems with excitement and possibility. With the help of magic, spelljammers can cross the oceans of Wildspace, ply the silvery void known as the Astral Sea, and hop between worlds of the D&D multiverse."
You left out the references to stars, the heavens, Widspace, a silvery void, hopping between worlds. Sounds pretty darn space-y to me.
"Stars" do not imply space. The Forgotten Realms has stars, and I guess is technically in space being a planet and all but is hardly a space setting. Ravenloft also has stars, and that definitely is not a space setting.

"Heavens" in this context is clearly a reference to the upper planes not space. IOW, far from being a rebuttal to my complaint it supports it.

"Hopping between worlds" does not imply any particular method, let alone confirming space travel.

"Silvery void". I have never thought of space as being silver, and I do not believe you have either (until yesterday).

So even if "no space" had been literal, the only bit that actually supported your accusation was "wildspace", with the remainder being neutral at best. Of course, my cunning plan to hide the full contents of your post involved not only preserving the links in the quote blocks, but also independently linking back to your post in my post #450. If I was trying to hide anything, I was really doing a really bad job of it.

That's a distinction without a difference.
Without a difference TO YOU. As I have already stated, multiple times, it makes all the difference to me.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about when I said people were telling me that I wasn't allowed to be disappointed: That the differences I consider to be significant are not allowed to matter (significant to my potential enjoyment of the product, that is, not necessarily in the grand scheme of things).

You did not merely say you were disappointed in the new Spelljammer. (No quotes, of course, since WotC owns that IP and can do whatever they please with it).
Bizarre non-sequitur since neither I nor anyone else suggested WotC did not have the legal right to do whatever they like with a brand they own. Had they wished, they would have been well within their rights to turn Spelljammer into a chain of coffee shops. And since I do not drink coffee, I would also have felt that was disappointing, and would have been well within my rights to say so.

Also, I am not sure how the legal status of the Spelljammer trade mark prevents you quoting these other claims about the product you are pretending I made (actually, what prevents your quoting them is their non-existence).

You made some claims that are invalid, and people have explained why.
Citation needed. I made ONE claim, which was slightly hyperbolic in its initial presentation, and was subsequently clarified to be entirely accurate. What "other" inaccurate claims have I made? That's a rhetorical question BTW. You yourself said this:
No, the only inaccurate bit I see in this thread is your claim that because they refer to the Astral Plane, it means it has nothing to do with space, despite all of the other things they also refer to which make it very clear it is to do with space.

Here you manage to misrepresent both what you said and what other people said
Nope. The only misrepresentation is on your side.

And this [bullying] is also a pretty vile misrepresentation of what people have been saying.
One poster began their responses beginning their first response with "TBH, I have trouble taking your comment seriously after this", and then escalated from there with (I think) to ever more vicious insults. Another poster started with what certainly felt like an insult but was cryptic and obfuscated enough to give plausible deniability (not that they really needed it), asked me if I "even read the book" as if that somehow made it immune to criticism, and accused me of being an old person telling kids to get off my lawn (again somewhat cryptically), even though I explicitly said in my very first post on the topic that said kids had no reason to care about the same things I care about, and then claimed I had shown that I did not know what was in the book even though (despite claims to the contrary) the one thing that I had said about the book (that it had replaced the phlogiston with the astral sea) was accurate, all in response to a post that quoted them not to rebut but to agree and expand. While all that was going on, nine other posters (including a mod) made posts relating to this tangent which would probably have been fine in isolation but in context contributed, deliberately or accidentally, to the feeling of being dog piled. All of which turned the notification icon from a simple notification of potential interest to a source of trepidation; so much so that I went to bed last night with a splitting headache thanks in large part to the stress of it all.

What would you call it when a large group in a position of relative power (due both to numbers and having a mod on their side) continues to badger a lone individual despite two requests to stop, to the point of causing physical pain? Sounds like "bullying" is a fairly apt description to me.
 

So how do you balance this? In other words...Why would I ever be a Str primary fighter when the other physical stats give me either more hit points or better AC?
by making str matter AS much as those other stats... aka just skills don't defualt to dex for AC let you use what ever stat you want too
 



Oofta

Legend
yeah it is just your personal preference...
If you believe your ideas have merit, comment in the upcoming surveys. If enough people do so, perhaps they will change the game. That's why they do playtests and conduct surveys.

Until then, yes, everybody tends to state their preference and does their best to justify their opinion. That's ... kind of what we do around here. No offense to The Dude but saying "that's just, like your opinion man" is a pretty meaningless retort in most cases.
 



Imaro

Legend
by making str matter AS much as those other stats... aka just skills don't defualt to dex for AC let you use what ever stat you want too
So then why not just have something called stat that's the highest number you rolled/point bought/whatever and can be used for everything... In other words why have different stats at this point?
 


So then why not just have something called stat that's the highest number you rolled/point bought/whatever and can be used for everything... In other words why have different stats at this point?
I am responding to this post but if people don't want to talk about it here please don't tag me


The difference is HOW you do it. Being smart and tactical is different then being strong and powerful and that is different then being agile and quick and that is still different from other attacks... and again give monsters abilities that trigger off them.
 




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