D&D 5E D&D Next the return of prestige classes?

[Astrosicebear]

Curious to start a discussion on character advancement options available in the next edition.

Should we look at returning prestige classes? Although some might argue they were brought about by the inclusion of a lackluster and front-loaded class structure in 3E.

Or can we imagine something else, a theme based system? A kit system from the bygone era? Or perhaps some sort of built in advanced class mechanism replacing the 'tiers' of 4E.

 

[CM]

A 3e prestige class and a 4e paragon path are roughly analogous in flavor but quite different rules-wise. I think that prestige classes changing your HP, BAB, base saves and spell progression became problematic, especially if you took more than one prestige class (back in the day I houseruled that you had to take all levels of a prestige class before you could choose a second).

I like how paragon paths divorced the base number progression from the advanced theme idea without really weakening its flavor. This made the math much easier and made it harder to game the system. I'd hope to see an option filling a similar role in 5e. Sort of an advanced theme that represents your character's membership in an elite order or such. With themes being core I'd think they would go with this advanced theme model which opens up alternate feats/powers/spells rather than create a slew of new class progressions.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't see a need: themes can fill that role.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I wouldn't mind if Prestige Classes. Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies were all left in the dust bin, to be honest. I really didn't like many aspects of the first one of those, and I really never liked how you were forced to take the latter two... Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies also lacked enough of a mechanical effect, had poor flavor, and tended to give too many forgettable, fiddly numbers.

I'm hoping that better class design and race or theme options will step up to take their place.

 

[Rechan]

I don't see a need: themes can fill that role.

I came to say this.

 

[Tehnai]

What if themes are the low level equivalent for paragon path/epic destinies?

I thought paragon paths et al were a cool concept, really.

So what if, every tier, you got to choose a new thingy?

Say, I'm a dwarven pubcrawler paladin at level one (let's call this adventurer tier), at level 5 (heroic tier) I gain the Dwarven Axeman... Let's call it a Hero's Calling. At level 10 (paragon tier), I become an Axe of Morradin. At level 15 (Master tier) I add Dwarven Clanfather. And at level 20, I get to become a Chosen of Morradin.

 

[Greg K]

I wouldn't mind if Prestige Classes. Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies were all left in the dust bin, to be honest. I really didn't like many aspects of the first one of those, and I really never liked how you were forced to take the latter two... Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies also lacked enough of a mechanical effect, had poor flavor, and tended to give too many forgettable, fiddly numbers.

I'm hoping that better class design and race or theme options will step up to take their place.

Sorry about the XP being garbled. I went to backspace and I hit enter.

I didn't like Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies and I hated that the rules forcing you to have to take them.

I would have preferred the Action Points for rerolls being something anyone could do with Action Points.

Prestige Classes I liked better as they were optional. Many, however, should have been classes or class variants. They were often concepts anyone should have been able to start provided they were appropriate in concept for the setting.

 

[Gundark]

I really don't want to see prestige classes return. There has got to be a better solution

 

[Sirot]

From What did Wizards learn from Essentials?

How does everyone feel about the subclass system that Essentials introduced? What I am talking about is the Ranger actually being a Hunter (Ranger) or a Scout (Ranger).

It is something I am hoping they will bring to 5e because it'll allow multiple classes to share one pool of resources. For example, you could have a Warlord (Fighter), Knight (Fighter), Berserker (Fighter), Kobold Warrior (Fighter) and so on.

So if you are a person who likes the idea of the fighter, but want a tweak to how its played, you can pick a subclass of the fighter that closest fits what you want him to be and work from there by adding a theme and feats.

It's a great way to implement Wizard Specializations or Warlock Pacts for example.

How would people if prestige and paragon are entirely replaced by subclasses? This is a pretty good solution if the classes in D&Dn can be presented concisely in a page or two in a rulebook. This would remove a lot of fiddly nature of tacking too many rules onto a character since everything would be presented on a single block of rules.

 

[the Jester]

I'm going to buck the trend and say I really like prestige classes.

 

[gyor]

I have have a feeling that 5e themes ate prestige classes, pagagon paths, epic destinies, and backgrounds. 5e themes will absorb them, but you will be able to have multiple themes in a manner simular to multiclassing.

Kits and pathfinder archetypes I think will be eaten by subclasses or builds instead.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I would not mind seeing PPS and EDs return, but they should be optional, like they were in 3.5.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I want to see Prestige classes or the equivalent that are not compulsory like paragon paths in 4E. Themes you get at first level which precludes them being either your DESTINY or a grouping that doesn't take noobs. Well you could decide your PCs destiny at 1st level but I prefer to be able to join the Knights of X once I am level Y. And I should be able to join that order once I have proved myself , not automatically at 11th level
A lot of classes should be prestige classes IMO, in my houseruled 3E Paladins were (for example, only needed to be a +2 BAB and fluff to get in) I also don't like the minimum of level 5 to get in.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I have have a feeling that 5e themes ate prestige classes, pagagon paths, epic destinies, and backgrounds. 5e themes will absorb them, but you will be able to have multiple themes in a manner simular to multiclassing.

Kits and pathfinder archetypes I think will be eaten by subclasses or builds instead.

Which only works if you can multi-theme (like multi classing) and/or change your theme at whatever level.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

I know that I would like to see Prestige Classes or Kits return, but I would like to see them separate from classes. You don't take levels in them "instead" of class levels, but "in addition" to. This way you can treat them more as general "jobs" or "professions" that add to a classes abilities without taking anything away.

Something like a "Mercenary" Prestige, or Kit would be on top of your class, so you could have Rogue Mercenaries or Sorcerer Mercenaries or Fighter Mercenaries kind of idea. This way the kits can be something extra that you can earn. You can have different levels of Kits, starting with simple ones like Mercenary working your way up to Harpers being hard to get into/have prerequisites for.

You could end up doing it for all sorts of things, so that you can have a more concentrated amount of classes, while using Kits to give those classes flavour.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I don't know that classes and themes and more racial options totally knocks out the room for prestige classes (and paragon paths, and the like). RCT may not kill prestige classes and take their stuff, but they probably do mug them, take their loose change and credit cards, and leave them standing on the corner rather disheveled.

Time you get rid of prestige classes that are nothing but alternate flavor with a handful of mechanics, or bad choices for what should have been more or better classes, then I don't know what is left.

I guess I could see a hybrid prestige class/paragon path setup--if classes were deliberately kept short and sweet. Say, there are 20 levels, but core classes only have 10. (Or 30 levels, with core stopped at 20, or whatever.) Then you might reach a point where specialization at the upper end was better reflected by a handful of prestige/paragon classes that were mutually exclusive, rather than extending the core classes with a proliferation of options. I doubt it, practically speaking, but I can see circumstances where that might be true.

 

[Astrosicebear]

One of the reasons I did not like the 4E version of paths/destinies was that it focused on set levels. Even if you were interested in playing an Archmage, you had to wait (mechanically) till epic levels.

The 3E system of presitge classes opened up advancement early on, sometimes as early as 3rd level. Many times it seemed players would be interested in playing a prestige class more than a base class. This may goes back to lackluster class design, but in 4e there was never a choice in the matter. Prestige classes in 3E offered not only a flavor change from your base class, but also a pretty significant mechanical change (for the most part). In 4e those changes where much less flavorful and to a big degree less mechanically shifting.

Themes work well for having a character background and having that player have a focus for the character, but rarely work well beyond 1st level. Advanced themes can work well, but mechanically we will have to see how easy it will be to shift the focus from the class. Allowing a 3e style of multiclass system, as they have said, may be a good step to ensuring player options mid-high levels with other modules like advanced themes.