D&D 5E D&D Next will succeed or die on the basis of its digital apps.

[delericho]

Subscriptions are the biggest obstacle to growing the game: if DDN requires subscriptions in order to do basic...

If subscription based tools are de facto necessary...

They're necessary not for the players to play the game, but for the game itself to survive. I agree that it would be madness for them to create a game with a required electronic component - that just encourages people to switch to Pathfinder.

But what they need to try to do is develop electronic tools that aren't required for play, but that are so useful that large numbers of people want to subscribe. As, in fact, they successfully did with 4e and the Character Builder and the Compendium.

The simple, unfortunate truth is that D&D almost certainly cannot survive on sales of printed material alone (or even simple sales of PDFs/eBooks). Hasbro simply have higher expectations of the brand.

 

[the Jester]

I suspect I will take more than a little flak for this, but from my perspective D&D Next will live or die on the basis of its digital apps (particularly iOS and Android).

Personally, while I'm all for electronic support, I never ever want to play in a version of D&D that virtually requires electronic support to the extent that 4e does unless it's an actual video game. I support the idea of apps or whatever, but they are absolutely not for every table and many groups find laptops, phones, tablets and the like to distract from the game.

Why?

1. A good digital aide will smooth the transition for new players and those like me who are hanging on to previous editions.
2. D&D Next purports to offer a simple game with Core Rules, or rapid integration with more specialized rulesets, maybe even older rulesets. I digital aide would help players and DM's handle this integration from game to game or even within a single session.
3. The 3rd edition and 4th edition digital aides were lousy, particularly at launch time. It was discouraging for new and experienced players. If D&D Next's aide works will at the editions launch... Boo ya!!!
4. I loved the books--particularly the 3.0-3.5 Forgotten Realms books. But dear sweet beejeebies what a pain to bring them to a session! D+D Insider's lack of mobile platform support (iOS, Android, mobile web) meant a laptop with wifi was needed. I love laptops, but they detract from group interactions.
5. Slickness---just think how sweet it would be to have players using their smartphones, DM on a pad all connected (wifi or cell). DM keeping track of initiative, and pushing out conditions, bonuses, penalties to the players.

Except for the last one, your points are good. But as for "how sweet it would be" to have everyone staring at screens and pushing buttons in order to manage the weight of the conditions inflicted on the pcs, npcs and monsters- ugh. Personally, I'd rather not have such a weight of conditions and mods that you need digital devices to avoid losing track, and I'd much rather the players be engaged with each other and the dm than be engaged with their devices.

So while I think digital support will be a factor, and I support the idea of the tools being available, I strongly want to avoid the whole "without the digital tools, your game won't run very well" factor that seemed to squat so heavily on 4e's level of complexity, especially with all the fiddly bits involved in character generation. A pencil, paper and dice are all you should actually need to make a character, and it shouldn't take longer than 20 minutes if you're not doing an agonizing amount of soul-searching on each choice you make.

 

[Obryn]

Personally, while I'm all for electronic support, I never ever want to play in a version of D&D that virtually requires electronic support to the extent that 4e does unless it's an actual video game.

I keep on seeing stuff like this.

IME, electronic tools are no more necessary in 4e than I found them to be in 3.x. HeroForge was damn near critical when I used a ton of sources - and not just for PCs, but for NPCs and monsters as well.

I think this perception might have come about because WotC actually made a really great character builder that was professionally made and delightful to use, and bundled it with a lot of other stuff a 4e player would want - like Dragon and Dungeon, and a killer Compendium. And since it had such a high degree of market penetration ... well, everyone just assumes it's necessary, now. I admit - I think it's such a great boon that I'd rather not make a character without it, but I'd say that's on account of being spoiled by good support rather than anything inherent to the game.

If I wanted to make a 4e character without a character builder, I'd likely do exactly what I did in 3.x without HeroForge - limit sources and thereby limit books and complexity.

Ditto on the DM side. I love Masterplan and it makes running everything really, really easy. Without Masterplan, I'd rely on simpler enemies, fewer custom enemies, and overall less complicated adventures. Does this mean Masterplan is necessary? Maybe to run the game in the way I'm running it, but not in general. I ran 19th level 4e without it, and I could do it again if I had to ... I'm just, as I said, spoiled.

But anyway, I think competent and professional electronic tools made by WotC itself would be great. I'd like to see them for the "Advanced" game, should they be helpful.

-O

 

[the Jester]

I keep on seeing stuff like this.

IME, electronic tools are no more necessary in 4e than I found them to be in 3.x.

Yeah, this was my attitude until about two years ago, when a bunch of my players inputted their (previously on paper only) characters into the CB- and tons of errors were revealed.

Defenses off by 2-5 points, missing 1 to 4 on attack values, missing as much as +9 on damage, hit point errors, errors in number of surges/surge values, incorrect skill boni- yikes!

Add to that the extreme option overload issue- especially with feats, many of which are so specific in 4e as to be useless if you are not the right class & race combination- and, well, I found it eye-opening.

So while I don't think 4e actually needs electronic tools to function, without them, every player at the table must be math savvy with an eye for detail, strong memory, excellent reading skills and a willingness to hand-write every power out (or constantly flip pages). So yeah- I have to say, without electronic support, 4e can function, but it only functions as well as intended with players with a very specific set of fairly rare characteristics. (I'm pretty sure every table has one math-impaired player, but not every table has one math-savvy player.)

 

[Shemeska]

I don't think 5e will succeed based on its digital apps or not. I think that digital apps are useful for support and attracting people via ease of play perhaps, but the best digital support in the world won't help you if you don't succeed at providing high quality content and satisfying the ever oh so nebulous "Does it feel like D&D to me" that varies from person to person.

And that's a best case situation, since D&D has never really operated with competition, or against arguably itself in the form of Pathfinder (and even more complicated when you have 4e players as potential hold-outs that may end up not liking either current edition).

Digital apps don't mean a ton to me as a player in most circumstances. It's useful for organized play such as Pathfinder Society when I play it, and its very very very useful when I'm building monsters for something published and need to have the math totally right. But at home, I'm so loose with the rules and numbers when I DM, and I enjoy the pen and paper fiddlyness so much, that digital apps don't mean much to me in home games, and so they aren't by any means something of major importance to me. Content and feel is.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yeah, this was my attitude until about two years ago, when a bunch of my players inputted their (previously on paper only) characters into the CB- and tons of errors were revealed.

Defenses off by 2-5 points, missing 1 to 4 on attack values, missing as much as +9 on damage, hit point errors, errors in number of surges/surge values, incorrect skill boni- yikes!

Add to that the extreme option overload issue- especially with feats, many of which are so specific in 4e as to be useless if you are not the right class & race combination- and, well, I found it eye-opening.

So while I don't think 4e actually needs electronic tools to function, without them, every player at the table must be math savvy with an eye for detail, strong memory, excellent reading skills and a willingness to hand-write every power out (or constantly flip pages). So yeah- I have to say, without electronic support, 4e can function, but it only functions as well as intended with players with a very specific set of fairly rare characteristics. (I'm pretty sure every table has one math-impaired player, but not every table has one math-savvy player.)

Not to mention CB tools give you access to all the information of every book ever, and while that can be a long list in some areas(which I hope DDN keeps shorter) it's certainly handier than flipping through all the books..which other people might be using when you need them...though only one person can access the CB at one time from the same account tho.

 

[Obryn]

Yeah, this was my attitude until about two years ago, when a bunch of my players inputted their (previously on paper only) characters into the CB- and tons of errors were revealed.

Defenses off by 2-5 points, missing 1 to 4 on attack values, missing as much as +9 on damage, hit point errors, errors in number of surges/surge values, incorrect skill boni- yikes!

You see, I expect the same would happen in any ongoing 3.x or Pathfinder game, too, especially when you get to what in 4e would be "paragon" tier. When it comes down to it, 4e's math is a lot lighter and more visible due to easier stacking rules. You can of course miss stuff - no argument, here; it's not a rules-light game, nor anywhere near as light as (say) RC D&D.

On the DM side, it's way easier - no modifiers for size or ability scores, simple formulas for attack/defense/damage ...

I am not arguing that 4e is super-simple or excessively easy to track. It's not. I'm saying it's not a meaningful distinction between 3e and 4e, so it puzzles me whenever it comes up. It's certainly not been in my experience - as I've said, I found HeroForge downright mandatory between skill points, feats, etc.

So while I don't think 4e actually needs electronic tools to function, without them, every player at the table must be math savvy with an eye for detail, strong memory, excellent reading skills and a willingness to hand-write every power out (or constantly flip pages).

Like ... spells in 3.x? Or any of the more flavorful feats you'd expect out of any higher-level fighter type; a few from PF have been noted? Or class features? I can fit a high-Paragon Knight, Slayer, Scout, or Elementalist onto a single double-sided sheet pretty easily, complete with everything the player needs to know.

-O

 

[Dannager]

They're necessary not for the players to play the game, but for the game itself to survive. I agree that it would be madness for them to create a game with a required electronic component - that just encourages people to switch to Pathfinder.

But what they need to try to do is develop electronic tools that aren't required for play, but that are so useful that large numbers of people want to subscribe. As, in fact, they successfully did with 4e and the Character Builder and the Compendium.

The simple, unfortunate truth is that D&D almost certainly cannot survive on sales of printed material alone (or even simple sales of PDFs/eBooks). Hasbro simply have higher expectations of the brand.

I agree with this completely. It's really easy to miss this distinction - that there's a difference between an app that is required to play, and an app that is so helpful that you'd be crazy not to want to use it. I can create a character with pencil and paper and a sourcebook in 4e with no problem whatsoever - it's actually super easy to do. But the Character Builder makes that process so much more straightforward and cuts the time required to a fraction, to say nothing of how it puts every option from every sourcebook in front of me to pick from. I recently bought a laser printer, and I'm now comfortable doing something I never thought I'd do: have players level up in the middle of a session, and keep going afterwards.

 

[El Mahdi]

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[El Mahdi]

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