Yes, you poor oppressed person. Keep your passive-aggressive, plausibly-deniable baiting up, with any luck you'll be recognized as the TRUE VICTIM in all of this.
D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer
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Yes, you poor oppressed person. Keep your passive-aggressive, plausibly-deniable baiting up, with any luck you'll be recognized as the TRUE VICTIM in all of this.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
I've avoided this thread because, well...see previous 50+ pages.
Anyway, I'm not gay. I'm me. I've always gone out with the opposite sex (female for me)...but I'm not so insecure as to discount the idea of having a 'boyfriend'. Never found any male 'attractive and available enough'...I mean, honestly, what red blooded male hasn't watched Brad Pitt in Interview With the Vampire and not felt a little conflicted? So I'd classify myself as "Hetero, but never say never".
What I find annoying is the "I'm in-your-face GAY and you must accept me and anything I do because of it!"...but the reverse isn't true at all. If some straight-laced hyper-conservative religious guy/gal is completely against homosexuality, if they say "I'm in-your-face against being gay and you must accept me and anything I do because of it!"...they're instantly persecuted for it, labeled a literal Nazi, and harassed by SJW's (gay or not) constantly and without mercy. I hate double-standards. >:\
Personally? I dislike any extreme personality type; so SJW's, "flaming" gays/non-hetero's, puritanical christians/muslims/etc...hell, even raving fan-boi's of movies/sports/politics/whatever...I'll just smile, nod my head, and get away from them as quickly as possible. Any extreme "side" of pretty much anything makes me really REALLY uncomfortable.
As for D&D...I don't care. Let me rephrase; I don't care as long as I don't really notice. The moment it seems like WotC/D&D is favouring some 'agenda' over making cool stuff, is the day I completely stop playing/buying anything D&D that I don't already own.
Ok...said my 2¢ on the matter and will say no more. If you want more, PM me.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
I've avoided this thread because, well...see previous 50+ pages.
Anyway, I'm not gay. I'm me. I've always gone out with the opposite sex (female for me)...but I'm not so insecure as to discount the idea of having a 'boyfriend'. Never found any male 'attractive and available enough'...I mean, honestly, what red blooded male hasn't watched Brad Pitt in Interview With the Vampire and not felt a little conflicted? So I'd classify myself as "Hetero, but never say never".
What I find annoying is the "I'm in-your-face GAY and you must accept me and anything I do because of it!"...but the reverse isn't true at all. If some straight-laced hyper-conservative religious guy/gal is completely against homosexuality, if they say "I'm in-your-face against being gay and you must accept me and anything I do because of it!"...they're instantly persecuted for it, labeled a literal Nazi, and harassed by SJW's (gay or not) constantly and without mercy. I hate double-standards. >:\
Personally? I dislike any extreme personality type; so SJW's, "flaming" gays/non-hetero's, puritanical christians/muslims/etc...hell, even raving fan-boi's of movies/sports/politics/whatever...I'll just smile, nod my head, and get away from them as quickly as possible. Any extreme "side" of pretty much anything makes me really REALLY uncomfortable.
As for D&D...I don't care. Let me rephrase; I don't care as long as I don't really notice. The moment it seems like WotC/D&D is favouring some 'agenda' over making cool stuff, is the day I completely stop playing/buying anything D&D that I don't already own.
Ok...said my 2¢ on the matter and will say no more. If you want more, PM me.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Waterbizkit
Explorer
I tried folks, I really did. I'm the sort of poster who prefers to read the entire thread before posting anything, but holy hell, this one was a beating. Within the first few pages I couldn't tell what the he'll was happening, by the teens it was like banging my head against a wall, and by the twenties I had to start questioning my own sanity for hitting the "next page" button.
It took no time at all for a thread about creating greater diversity within the game, and hopefully by extension the community, to go completely sideways with cries of propaganda and all sorts of other nonsense. And where the hell did all the monotheism and atheist nonsense come in? My god. No pun intended.
The internet is a strange and wonderful place. Mostly strange in this case.
Anyway, I couldn't walk away from this dumpster fire without at least saying this about the OP: I'm glad to see more diversity in the game. That's it. Just a simple statement of support, because after reading nearly thirty pages of this thread it's about all I can muster.
It took no time at all for a thread about creating greater diversity within the game, and hopefully by extension the community, to go completely sideways with cries of propaganda and all sorts of other nonsense. And where the hell did all the monotheism and atheist nonsense come in? My god. No pun intended.
The internet is a strange and wonderful place. Mostly strange in this case.
Anyway, I couldn't walk away from this dumpster fire without at least saying this about the OP: I'm glad to see more diversity in the game. That's it. Just a simple statement of support, because after reading nearly thirty pages of this thread it's about all I can muster.
It's not a double standard, because you are comparing two different things.
The reverse of "I'm gay and you must accept me" is not "I'm anti-gay and you must accept me", it's "I'm straight and you must accept me". And guess what? People do accept straight people! There are no anti-straight marches.
"I object to your existence" is not the equivalent to "I exist", and the two should never be compared to each other.
Kryx
Explorer
I really admire your stance on this issue. It's great to see a community leader take such a stance.
This hobby, like the world as a whole, has no room for homophobia. While many in this thread will claim "Oh, I'm not homophobic" we've all seen their words that dance around the issue, but we know what is truly meant.
Thanks again for standing up against hate [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION].
No. It's just the mods rely on the users to report violations. Did you report the post? Most don't bother.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
More importantly, there are some topics directly about gaming and the gaming community that cannot help but have political overtones - inclusiveness whether of women, people who identify LGBT, or racial minorities in particular. ENWorld has usually offered those discussions some leeway because it's an inclusive place and as I mentioned above there's always a backlash. And it would be terrible indeed if a segment of our community could never discuss issues related to their identity because the white, straight males of the community were uncomfortable with the politics.
Jus to start, thanks for engaging with me in good faith.
I'll respond to this post in kind. We can definitely talk more in PM if you want, but I'm not sure if it'll be necessary.
Well, to be fair - being gay got you killed - in the 'states for a long time. (In some parts, and much of the world, it still does.) Even today, the most successful, happy gay/lesbian/queer/trans people I know in California, the place that is supposedly the most 'friendly' state for odd people, still tell me stories of bigotry that make my jaw drop.
So, yeah, how you're feeling now sucks, and it's not fair, but it's the way they've always felt. So, IMO try to be understanding and empathetic. I know I have to be - I'm still a middle aged white dude that - no matter what experiences I've had - has to be very careful what I say.
But, the people that extreme are 'fringe', and not representative of the majority who've been doing their thing quietly their whole lives. But, like all reactions to wide social changes, IMO it's an overcorrection - the 'pendulum swings' cliché - and eventually it will recede.
Gay/lesbian/queer people are a small minority of the population. You're not in any danger of having your way of life overthrown. But if straight people get to have their Spring Break Palm Springs alcohol-fueled naked debauchery, then I think everyone else does too.
I think there's a huge difference between 'being treated as a human being and included equally' and 'ham-fisted ideological symbolism for purely political reasons'. I also think those things are usually pretty easy to see coming. And, the ham-fisted ideology - slanted, terrible thinking that requires removing all subtlety and nuance from your thinking - is usually accompanied by terrible, terrible writing.
But judging from how deftly inclusive 5E was made to be accessible for players of all previous editions, I think they will do just fine.
I'll respond to this post in kind. We can definitely talk more in PM if you want, but I'm not sure if it'll be necessary.
Well, to be fair - being gay got you killed - in the 'states for a long time. (In some parts, and much of the world, it still does.) Even today, the most successful, happy gay/lesbian/queer/trans people I know in California, the place that is supposedly the most 'friendly' state for odd people, still tell me stories of bigotry that make my jaw drop.
So, yeah, how you're feeling now sucks, and it's not fair, but it's the way they've always felt. So, IMO try to be understanding and empathetic. I know I have to be - I'm still a middle aged white dude that - no matter what experiences I've had - has to be very careful what I say.
But, the people that extreme are 'fringe', and not representative of the majority who've been doing their thing quietly their whole lives. But, like all reactions to wide social changes, IMO it's an overcorrection - the 'pendulum swings' cliché - and eventually it will recede.
Gay/lesbian/queer people are a small minority of the population. You're not in any danger of having your way of life overthrown. But if straight people get to have their Spring Break Palm Springs alcohol-fueled naked debauchery, then I think everyone else does too.
I think there's a huge difference between 'being treated as a human being and included equally' and 'ham-fisted ideological symbolism for purely political reasons'. I also think those things are usually pretty easy to see coming. And, the ham-fisted ideology - slanted, terrible thinking that requires removing all subtlety and nuance from your thinking - is usually accompanied by terrible, terrible writing.
But judging from how deftly inclusive 5E was made to be accessible for players of all previous editions, I think they will do just fine.
Hussar
Legend
Well, that was a reading experience. :/
Just to belabor the point about tolerance. No, tolerance is NOT reciprocal. That's not how it works. Otherwise, we'd tolerate behavior that obviously shouldn't be - child abuse, for example, which was tolerated (and unfortunately still is) to a very large degree for a very long time.
Tolerance does not equal blind acceptance of all things. We tolerate things which society judges to be good and condemn things that society has judged to be bad. It's not a perfect system, by any stretch, but, this notion that it must be 100% "fair" all the time is just wrong. It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way when we talk about tolerating ideologies (yup, we tolerate some and we don't tolerate others).
This isn't game design where all the classes have to be equal. It doesn't work like that. There are trap choices in your ideological character options that are very, very subpar.
Just to belabor the point about tolerance. No, tolerance is NOT reciprocal. That's not how it works. Otherwise, we'd tolerate behavior that obviously shouldn't be - child abuse, for example, which was tolerated (and unfortunately still is) to a very large degree for a very long time.
Tolerance does not equal blind acceptance of all things. We tolerate things which society judges to be good and condemn things that society has judged to be bad. It's not a perfect system, by any stretch, but, this notion that it must be 100% "fair" all the time is just wrong. It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way when we talk about tolerating ideologies (yup, we tolerate some and we don't tolerate others).
This isn't game design where all the classes have to be equal. It doesn't work like that. There are trap choices in your ideological character options that are very, very subpar.
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