D&D spellcasters in the modern world

Rav said:
Yes, but I doubt whether that would work... I have seen many men want to get serious with women who were already their best friends... it hardly ever works. Sleeping with your best friend is like sleeping with a family member isn't it?

I don't know about "best friends" (it's not really a division I use), but all of my best relationships started out as friendships. Good friendship = emotional intimacy. Emotional intimacy + physical chemistry + right circumstances -> physical intimacy. If there's already a physical attraction, and someone used Charm Person to create the illusion of the emotional intimacy implicit to a strong friendship, it would make it a lot easier to get many girls into bed.
 

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Someone who would have to resort to Charm Person to get laid, probably wouldn't have the social finesse to take the relationship "to a higher level" don't you think :)

Pah... Telepaths with dominate person, now that's the way to get what you want, when you want it! :D

Rav
 

Rav said:
Someone who would have to resort to Charm Person to get laid, probably wouldn't have the social finesse to take the relationship "to a higher level" don't you think :)

I don't know if you're underestimating smooth-talking guys, or overestimating the average 18-20 year old girl. The older I get the more disgusting it is when guys who my girlfriend would label "skeesy" have throngs of female companions. With charm person these guys could jump over the two weeks of being a "tortured artist" and get the girl in the sack on the first or second evening. That way he can move on to her roommate that much sooner.

That's the downside of being friendly with the undergrads. I get to hear about these little dramas every semester. :rolleyes: Aside from the sheer irritation, it always pins the needle on my "moral outrage" meter.
 

Canis said:
If I had a wand of mending, I would never need to buy clothes again. Clothiers would go up in smoke.

You, my friend, have underestimated the fashion industry. :)

It's not wear and tear that drives the majority of clothing sales - it's fashion, plain and simple. Young adults, adolescents, and women particularly make up the majority of clothing sales. Although sales would be hurt, they wouldn't be devastated. What the fashion industry would have to do is very much what they do now:

1) Legally stop imitators (people with fabricate spells);
2) Enforce the marketing mentality that if it's not an original brand name, it's worthless.

Basically, that segment wouldn't change that much - the ends wouldn't change much, just the means.

Similarly, Counterfeiting would first be rampant, until magical caps were put in place to make commodities such as money and precious minerals unique again.

In the Star Trek universe, what is the most valuable commodity available? Latinum (sp?), because for some reason the Star Trek Replicators cannot reproduce it. (As I recall, it can't be teleported with their transporters, either.)
 

Henry said:
You, my friend, have underestimated the fashion industry. :)

It's not wear and tear that drives the majority of clothing sales - it's fashion, plain and simple. Young adults, adolescents, and women particularly make up the majority of clothing sales. Although sales would be hurt, they wouldn't be devastated. What the fashion industry would have to do is very much what they do now:

No, I'm overestimating people (especially men). I, for example, have been wearing the same type of clothes since high school. Comfortable and functional. I've been "in fashion" twice, entirely by accident. Fashion just isn't a blip on my radar. I wear clothes until they disintegrate or shrink so much that I have to give them to my girlfriend. If I could mend them, I would only lose the clothes that shrink, and I receive enough clothes as gifts to make up for those.

Fashion is a banal concept, created by the fashion industry by making people fell bad about themselves unless they're wearing the "right" clothes. This is asinine.

People in rural areas often have the same mindset as me on this, as do most men who work in a physical fashion for a living. While I guess J. Crew and the Gap wouldn't be going anywhere, Sears, for example, would have to drop its men's clothing department completely. And the market would definitely narrow for things like T-shirts and plain-old jeans and sweaters and such that never really go out of style.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:


Oh, I imagine there are plenty of sexual predators who would be all to willing to use charm person to get dates...

I think anyone whose played D&D for any level of time has certainly seen <i>charm person</i> used for precisely such assaults.
 

My mind <i>reels</i> with the heady possibilities of this subject. :D

I <i>definitely</i> believe that magic in a modern game needs to be thought through. Of course, I think this about fantasy games. ;p

To get to the meat of it, and the nature of the things to be considered, what any GM who is doing this needs to ask themselves is: <I>What is the real nature of the universe?</i> This will be vitally important for both arcane and divine spellcasters.

Divine spellcasters don't need to worship particular gods. They can worship vague entities all they want and get spells for their troubles -- or, perhaps, even entities that do not exist!

To take some modern examples, what would happen if Roman Catholic preists, Muslim mullahs, Shiavite Hindu gurus and Native American shamans all got access to the same list of spells without any one of them being able to bring forth their god, or each of them being able to bring forth spiritual beings who *also disagree about matters of religion*. Well, I suspect what would happen is believers would be more certain and less tolerant, and all the theological arguments that go on, now, will go on at a higher level. Atheists, of course, would use the disagreement of spiritual forces to "prove" they were right, then spend their lives trying to do divine magic tricks with arcane magic to further their argument.

The whole matter would be different if the only people to get clerical spells were the followers of a specific religion, and if all the spiritual entities summoned by both divine and arcane spellcasters agreed about the nature of god. Oh, sure, some curmudgeons such as myself would say, "Well, that doesn't <I>really prove</i> there's a god!" -- but most people would eventually come into line . . . in time. It would be a tremendous social upheaval if, tomorrow, we learned that hitherto tribal god of some remote Polynesian people was the one, true god. Certainly some nations, religions and people would attempt to murder all the practicioners of this religion, which I imagine would be an exercise in futility in the long run -- after all, they are fighting both the truth and the will of god.

(Or worse, what if the people who get clerical spells do so by worshipping a group of beings that wish our harm and destruction; the implications of a universe peopled with gods who are either indifferent to our existence or hostile to it would have dramatic consequences, I think, culturally. Proof the universe doesn't care about people -- an ugly bit of nastiness but as possible as god being this wonderful and benevolent force in a fantasy game.)

Then there's the decision of what do these pesky outsiders really know? In a fair bit of fiction, technological advances have come from the mouths of demons. Would that be the case in this modern setting? Would researchers be nothing more than magicians with a ton of spells for getting information out of outsiders? If the answer is that outsiders are either not more technological advanced than humans -- which has interesting implications on its own, that we can do things better than angels and demons -- then, clearly, this question is void. If the answer is, yeah, these outsiders are better at technology than us and can be induced to part from their secrets, how humans interacted with science and technology would be radically different.

The political affiliations of outsiders could also be vitally important, of course. I mean, if the Angel Council endorsed a candidate -- y'know, a council of lawful good celestials -- who wouldn't vote for the person? And if people DIDN'T vote for that person, what does that say about the culture's values?

Even if outsiders didn't help scientific inquiries, if magic has been around for a while, certainly it would assist in the advance of science. Lots of experiments that people had to wait a long time to do -- so instruments of measurment and power were available -- could be done much earlier than in our world. I mean, would it have taken until Leo da Vinci to find the moons of Jupiter of eyes of the eagle were made in Roman days, for instance?

Likewise, how easily one could access other planes, and the nature of these planes, would be very important. If it was easy to get to the Great Wheel, for instance, would anyone be left on earth at all? Who would stay on earth if one could get admittance to Ysgard or Mt. Celestia? And what a learning experience it would be for people, who believe they are good and wonderful people, but who cannot endure the goodness of Mt. Celestia!

Controlled access to the Outer Planes would be easier on the game, naturally.

All these things are vital, absolutely vital, to understanding the impact of magic on the real world. Probably more important than the individual spells, themselves. Magic, arcane and divine, opens humanity up to all sorts of new possibilities.

The way magic operates will be important, too. Pretty clearly, if magic exists objectively, it's going to be the subject of massive scientific inquiry. Massive. Until it was well explored, described and manipulated it would be THE field of inquiry, I suspect. How opaque magic is to science is incredibly important; if science can "figure out" how magic works, and manipulate magical forces with that knowledge, it is possible there would be magic factories and the like. The implications of that would also have to be explored -- is there magical pollution?

Not to mention all the possible variants. Maybe the "gods" are mortal beings with superscience, and the spells are nothing but their bizarro world technology. Maybe the gods are gamers and we are their pieces and the universe is their rule-book -- the characters might never learn it, or believe it, but it could be true, just the same. It goes on and on.

The level of acceptance of magic is probably highly dependant on the length of time it's been around. Sure, there would be some skeptics for a while if magic arrived on the scene today. If it appeared a century, or an age, ago, it would be as accepted universally. I suspect if there were modest amounts of spellcasters, too, that most people would accept through the mechanism of "seeing is believing" that something was going on. Maybe they'd define it as "psionics" or conspiracy superscience whatever, but on some level the'd believe it because they can directly experience it.

Oh, yeah, conspiratologists would be in the Seventh Heaven with this stuff. I mean, a world were there WERE demons?! They'd have joygasms. Nothing could be proven, or disproven, all would be a jumble . . . .

In a modern world, I'm having trouble seeing how spellcasters would face systematic persecution. Spellcasters at ever level of society would probably help every level of society, so cultures that embraced spellcasters would have a huge advantage on those who didn't. Of course, other people might see differently than I do, but in terms of oppressor and oppressed, I figure that spellcasters would be overwhelmingly the oppressors not the oppressees. This would be more true if spellcasters have been around a while.

One of the more comprehensible, to me, possibilities of magical oppression is if one group of spellcasters for some reason was antithetical to the other -- let's say that the verifiably proven one true god tells his cleric and paladins (or blackguards, who might not realize they're evil, heh) that arcane spellcasters get their energy from evil forces. The truth of it would be irrelevant -- the religious folks would persecute arcane spellcasters because god told them to do so, and since they'd be backed up with the full weight of clerical magic victory of the magicians would not be assured.

Of course, if the magic was secret, part of a game about Secret Masters of the Illuminati or whatever, most of the effects on society could be ignored for a variety of reasons, the biggest being it's all hidden. ;p

Oh, the mind still reels! But I'm done with this letter. :D
 

About the Charm person thingy:

I think we're both underestimating the cultural differences between The US and the Netherlands :)

Rav
 

Dark Helmet[/i] [B]You'll get my wand when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!!! ---------------------------------------- Dark Helmet: Lifetime member National Wand Association[/B][/QUOTE] LOL I missed this earlier. That's a beautiful irony. All of us sitting there sneering at the NRA and clutching our Wands of [i]Magic Missile[/i]. :) [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rav said:
I think we're both underestimating the cultural differences between The US and the Netherlands :)

There is a certain logic to your position. Point conceded. :)

But that brings up another thought. What would the impact of magic be on the globalization of culture?

I'm pretty sure arcane magic would ultimately increase globalization. People start building portals and it becomes possible to live in a backwater town in Italy and work in Manhattan. Or live in Podunk, Arkansas and work in Paris. (Man, and here I thought it wasn't possible for me to feel bad for Parisians).

Nationalism probably wouldn't last too long under those conditions, at least not among the magic-rich countries. One of the nice things about having magical research in universities, though, is that it would spread more rapidly to other countries. My department alone would want portals to several places in Europe, Madagascar, Brazil, Japan, India, a few places on the African continent, and Sydney, Australia. Just for research and collaboration purposes. When you start factoring in the ones we would make for personal use and the ones from other departments...

Heck, a large university could put several airlines out of business. That ought to bring an end to deregulation.

Divine magic, as Chrisling pointed out, would be a thornier problem. Religious tolerance would go right out the window no matter what. The only situation that could possibly avoid a new Holy War is if every religion got divine magic from an identifiably identical source, and if anyone who tried to prompt a holy war would get their power yanked. Even then, you have to deal with the people who have been waiting all their lives to be proved right about God and the Afterlife, who are suddenly proven irrevocably wrong. Despair among the clergy would be commonplace.

This probably wouldn't effect daily life much where I am, but then I live in a college town in the Northeastern U.S. Religion has about as much place in people's daily lives here as a speed bump. Every once in a while, you run into it, but if you even notice it, it's not like it alters the course of your day. I imagine in other places this would be more noticeable.
 

Since my mind works in weird ways, I was thinking about magic in society and stuff -- D&D style magic -- and I was thinking what I would think if, y'know, tomorrow it was <i>proven</i> that these little arcane rituals could create these dramatic effects. What it would do to my <i>mind</i>, and how it interacted with the world.

In philosophical discussions, people pretty regularly talk about what if all your senses were controlled by an evil genie, or equally exotic positions that most people don't believe because, well, it runs contrary to the continuity of our memory and existence. I mean, name a philosopher who takes one of these mental journeys and doesn't end, basically, back in the world? Then, <I>bam</i>, I meet someone who is, "Oh, yeah, I'm a powerful wizard. I can take over your perceptions and make them dance a jig. I could make it so you see only what I wanted you to see. I could create whole worlds inside your head, and you'd never, ever be able to figure it out."

What would you believe? What <i>could</i> a person legitimately believe? These powers are out there, doing things, and <i>your will might not be your own</i>. How could you know if your thoughts were your own, or just a construct invented by a powerful wizard and honestly subject to that magician's whims?

Where would the self lay in this world? Could it be found, or if found, recognized?

And what about those powerful magicians -- how would we treat a person who could twist the world into whatever shape they desired? Would we think they possessed a greater vision of the universe's truths than I do? It'd be easy to do, considering their awesome power.

What would the magicians feel -- <i>especially</i>, as seems to be the case in most D&D games, that being a wizard is basically a trade that can be learned, not too different from physics or plumbing (save maybe somewhat harder), and doesn't require this profound mystic vision? Would these people, who were really emotionally and intellectually normal save for their superhuman powers, find themselves believing their own hype about them being the lords of creation? I'd think it would be a constant danger for magicians who don't have the built-in limitations to their powers as clerics do (no one can take away their powers for straying away from a particular position).

Interesting to consider, I think.
 

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