D&D Still Satanic? "So my mom threw away all my D&D books..."

Jeffrey · May 13, 2011

Damn, when I was 17 I didn't own $1,000 worth of anything!

I am so old...

SuperJebba · May 13, 2011

D&D is not in and of itself satanic, but it certainly contains elements that could lead someone down that road. It has unfortunately led some people down that road, and that is what the ultra-conservatives focus on which is too bad. That view of D&D is so far from the norm and very narrow.

D&D is what you make of it. For me, it is playing a hero and participating in a cool story, getting phat lewtz and hanging out with my friends. Casting a spell is simply saying, "I cast fireball, make your reflex save."

It is too bad that some people have taken D&D too far and ruined its image for the rest of us that just like to have fun.

Thagdal · May 13, 2011

pawsplay said:
I challenge you to describe how someone who has the ability, and the ethical justification for an action, dose not have the right. If the parents' justification is based on the child's well-being, then that justification fades when an action is counter to a child's well-being. And a teenager does have the ability to recognize that some things may be counter to their well-being. If, on the other hand, the justification is based on the parent's preferences, that is not a right, only a preference. Parents do not have a right to enforce what is merely a preference, any more than any human being can enforce their preferences on any other human being.

You seem to be using 'right' in a different way to me. I'm not going to accept a challenge unless I actually understand your terms.
Actually I prefer discussion over some calling out to prove myself correct over opinion based matters.

I was using the term right as a legal, united nations term. The word 'rights' having a defined meaning and set of guildines. eg UNICEF - Convention on the Rights of the Child -. Personally I dont consider withholding a leisure based book from a kid a violation of the UN bill of rights for children.
I don't consider particluarily harmful to a child's well being if its an isolated case either. Taking everything away from a child they enjoy would be determiental to thier growth, taking one book or pastime meh.

I also wouldn't place a teenager in the same catergory as a child. By 15 in many locales, a teenager has the right to move out of home and make any of their own rules.

A statement stating a child has ethical justification for x action is really going to become a debate about personal ethics.
Children, and teenagers, may well feel they have ethical grounds for disagreeing with parent, and be wrong in terms of possible harm.
Ethics are slippery suckers. There as as many version of what is ethicals as there are people.

I also didn't say I thought parents had the 'right to enforce a preference', but in realistic terms over actual rights, that is a basic strong truth of parenting children. It's justified by most society's social contracts and norms. Parents are allowed to do what they think best for thier children unless it harms the child.

In most legal senses, I doubt a child (again teenagers are different) would have much success in the small claims court arguing that their parents took away a toy the parent thought was unsafe - even if they proved toy was really safe.
House owners in most places have the legal right to choose whats in thier house, (aside from the obvious things enforced by law/standards liek fire alarms in some locales). If they don't wont green couchs, they can get rid of them. If they dont want books by authors with the name starting with G, then they don't have to. It may not be fair, but the mere fact something is unfair doesn't grant you a legal right, or imo even a moral right automactially.

In day to day life, humans constantly enforce their preferences on other humans, not just parents over children, but bosses over staff, the diner that closes before the evening meal, the IP court that wont allow game designers to use hairy footed half-humans, buses that run every hour and that's ten minutes before you leave from work, etc etc.

Having the ability to do something, and the moral belief that you are right doesn't equal the right to do something, at least not as I define 'rights'.

Edit: I still don't personally agree with the parent btw - just making that clear.

Thagdal · May 13, 2011

Twowolves said:
You too eh? We had a player who's parents forbid him from playing D&D on religious grounds, but had absolutely no problem if we replaced "orcs" with "bank robbers" and "thieves" with "superheroes". So we played MSH and V&V until he turned 18 and then told them he was an adult and he'd do as he damn well pleased.

Heh. I do still have such a fond memory spot for those two games.

But clarifying, my parents have always been very cool with D&D and RPGs, it was the school that didnt allow it.

aurance · May 13, 2011

SuperJebba said:
D&D is not in and of itself satanic, but it certainly contains elements that could lead someone down that road. It has unfortunately led some people down that road, and that is what the ultra-conservatives focus on which is too bad. That view of D&D is so far from the norm and very narrow.

D&D is what you make of it. For me, it is playing a hero and participating in a cool story, getting phat lewtz and hanging out with my friends. Casting a spell is simply saying, "I cast fireball, make your reflex save."

It is too bad that some people have taken D&D too far and ruined its image for the rest of us that just like to have fun.

There's no evidence that it's actually led anyone down that road.

RPG_Tweaker · May 13, 2011

ForeverSlayer said:
All this kid can do at this point is try and talk to the mother and see where they go from there. If she still says no then it has to be accepted. Any kind of rebellion or lawyering will only fan the flames and make matters worse.

No it does not have to be accepted. Rebellion against tyranny of this sort is fully justified.

That mother abused her parental status by violating that kid's personal space and imposing her religious belief.

She would be justified in saying "that game and those books are not allowed in this house, you will keep them elsewhere." but by throwing out his books, she's treating him as a slave where SHE decides how he may pursue personal happiness, and that his things are actually her things.

Never ever give a child advice to disobey their parents unless it is a very good reason and RPG's are not one of them.

It IS a very good reason.

The principle of personal prerogative. The goal of becoming a self-deciding person rather than an indoctrinated brain-clone of another.

The mother's actions were unjust, illiberal, and emotionally cruel... and I would freely counsel the kid to disobey if they too felt strongly enough about it.

Dilandau Kale · May 13, 2011

The thing that gets me is the mother takes away the books for having supposedly satanic imagery in them but lets him have a computer where he is one search engine query away from all the satanic imagery/information a person could ever need.

Raven Crowking · May 13, 2011

Fifth Element said:
You're certainly right about some people,

HEY! I'm right here!

:blush:

Bullgrit · May 13, 2011

RedTonic said:
Even Jack Chick is being forced to moderate his stance (by deleting old tracts off of his site--apparently even very conservative believers find his works objectionable!).