D&D Still Satanic? "So my mom threw away all my D&D books..."

[Fifth Element]

Because, if you're shown to be wrong you're supposed to change your mind and agree with the evidence, but that's not what happens.

I fully agree that this does happen, sometimes. What I'm disputing is your apparent assertion that all people behave this way all the time.

This is what I mean about your broad brush. There is no doubt that some people, even most people, make up their minds about some things and do so not based on any particular reason, so that showing them different reasons will have no effect on that belief.

But it's flatly untrue that all people do this about everything.

 

[Diamond Cross]

I fully agree that this does happen, sometimes. What I'm disputing is your apparent assertion that all people behave this way all the time.

This is what I mean about your broad brush. There is no doubt that some people, even most people, make up their minds about some things and do so not based on any particular reason, so that showing them different reasons will have no effect on that belief.

But it's flatly untrue that all people do is about everything.

And I simply can not agree with you. It simply shows you do not understand what I am saying.

Because you've already made up your mind and now there's simply nothing in the world that will change it.

When a person makes up their minds there is nothing in the world that can change it. They will use whatever means at their disposal to support that decisions and belief.

And that is what I'm saying.

It's human nature.

 

[Fifth Element]

When a person makes up their minds there is nothing in the world that can change it. They will use whatever means at their disposal to support that decisions and belief.

I understand what you're saying. And I agree that for most people, there are beliefs for which this is an accurate description.

But you seem to be saying that no person is capable of rationally examining any of their beliefs. That once they've "made up their mind" about anything, there's nothing that can dissuade them. Again, I agree that this is true about some things for some people, but it is not universal to all beliefs held by all people.

When presented with a case of a radical change in beliefs, you dismiss it by saying that he hadn't "really made up his mind". So I guess you need to better define what having "made up your mind" means.

 

[nedjer]

There's no evidence that it's actually led anyone down that road.

Absolutely, they choose to go down that road because it lines their pockets, creates the pretence of community action and this bolsters their self-righteouness and therefore self-esteem. That leads to something known as the 'chocolate biscuit effect', alongside something known as the fundamental attribution error, which form an expanded sense of self-entitlement whereby their personal psychological structuring is unable to cope with challenges to even a small part of the whole irrational scheme. Hence nice as pie while you don't psychologically 'attack' them personally, (as they understand it) and immediate recourse to fervour, emotional blackmail and volatile outbursts when challenged over the tiniest detail.

Ironically, as Christianity is an abnegational religion, they are 'off the rails' as their scriptures specifically advised against the dangers of succumbing to their own egos, e.g. David (superego) has to overcome the monstrosities of the Goliath (ego). Which happens to be what Diamond Dude sees occuring in academic circles, where conceit can often diminish inquiry.

However, being totally academically up myself, please don't take my word for it. Derren Brown's recent look at evangelical preaching in the US, (and much of his other work) shows just how stunningly easy it is to fool people through pushing the right buttons.

 

[nedjer]

Those specific reasons are still just another way to not believe what you don't want to believe. As I said, regardless of the exact words used, it's still a dismissal. Whenever a person doesn't want to believe they will use anything at their disposal to support their decisions and beliefs. This is something that everybody does.

That's not what I've done here. I've offered scientific evidence and debate, and I ask for your valid evidence and insight in return. Any scientist worth their Walker's Crisps doesn't hold to absolute truths or rigid interpretation whether its RPGs or open heart surgery.

It's a bit hard to after chatting with the quantum physicists, who don't hesitate to note that none of us have 'the answers', but that science's measurement of itself saves countless lives, e.g. smallpox, compared to superstition and folklore which devastates whole populations.

Superstition doesn't put itself forward for measurement and testing; science does. Science saves lives; superstition kills. According to the dogmatic I guess that means superstition is evil?

 

[Diamond Cross]

I understand what you're saying. And I agree that for most people, there are beliefs for which this is an accurate description.

But you seem to be saying that no person is capable of rationally examining any of their beliefs. That once they've "made up their mind" about anything, there's nothing that can dissuade them. Again, I agree that this is true about some things for some people, but it is not universal to all beliefs held by all people.

When presented with a case of a radical change in beliefs, you dismiss it by saying that he hadn't "really made up his mind". So I guess you need to better define what having "made up your mind" means.

Most people are incapable or rationally examining their beliefs, but that is not what I'm saying. It's when people have made up their minds is what I am talking about.

For example, you're made up your mind that you can not agree with what I'm saying. You have your reasons, of course, but you'll never change it under any circumstances.

My statement was not about the processes with how a person makes their decisions, just once they make their decisions and come to their conclusions.

It's impossible to change a person's mind.

 

[Umbran]

Because, if you're shown to be wrong you're supposed to change your mind and agree with the evidence, but that's not what happens.

As a practical matter, you cannot show him wrong unless you can demonstrate for all people on the planet (6.92 billion or so of them) are incapable of changing their minds.

And he cannot show you are wrong, because without the ability to discern if someone's beliefs are "locked in", your assertion is non-falsifiable.

I don't make this comment for your sake, by the way. I make it for those who are considering continued butting of heads against you.

 

[Diamond Cross]

As a practical matter, you cannot show him wrong unless you can demonstrate for all people on the planet (6.92 billion or so of them) are incapable of changing their minds.

And he cannot show you are wrong, because without the ability to discern if someone's beliefs are "locked in", your assertion is non-falsifiable.

I don't make this comment for your sake, by the way. I make it for those who are considering continued butting of heads against you.

I know the drill. Once I have a dissenting opinion people have to be rude, crude, and do their utmost brow beat me into submission and then when I protest I'm doing something wrong and I'll get removed from the discussion because I'm the one using inflammatory statements, being snively, or whatever, etc etc etc...

 

[Fifth Element]

Most people are incapable or rationally examining their beliefs, but that is not what I'm saying. It's when people have made up their minds is what I am talking about.

Why does the basis for having made up one's mind not matter? If I made up my mind based on an examination of evidence, why would new evidence not have any effect on me?

For example, you're made up your mind that you can not agree with what I'm saying. You have your reasons, of course, but you'll never change it under any circumstances.

That's because the evidence you would need to provide in this case is impossible to provide now. You're claiming something never happens, so as long as I've seen it happen a few times myself, which I have, I know that you're incorrect.

But there's any number of things you might be able to change my mind about. It depends on the thing.

My statement was not about the processes with how a person makes their decisions, just once they make their decisions and come to their conclusions.

You are talking about decision-making processes, though. If someone, let's call him Mr. Scientist, makes a decision about something based on evidence available at the time, and then later new evidence arises that would cause Mr. Scientist to have reached a different decision if he had it before. You're apparently saying he will not change his mind after examining this new evidence, since he's already made up his mind once and will therefore not change it. But this changing happens all the time.

 

[Umbran]

Ironically, as Christianity is an abnegational religion, they are 'off the rails' as their scriptures specifically advised against the dangers of succumbing to their own egos.....

Nobody in this thread should need to be reminded of the NO RELIGION rule at this point. The next person who does need that reminder can expect to be booted from the thread without further warning or discussion.