D&D "Super Heroes"

Bullgrit

Adventurer
Many RPG players have compared high-level D&D characters with comic book super heroes. With magic spells or magic items, high-level D&D characters are so far beyond the realm of normal D&D-world characters, they are like Captain America, Superman, and other heroes with super powers. Well, that's not true. High-level D&D characters are more powerful than even comic book super heroes.

For instance, look at Captain America: he's basically a 20th-level fighter with a single magic item (an artifact, really). His physical abilities are all within normal human limits, although at the very maximum limits. A 20th-level fighter in D&D is going to have magic items to boost his physical abilities beyond normal limits. He'll have magic items that allow him to fly, and resist magic and effects, and he'll have a whole suite of magic weapons, armors, and miscellaneous gear.

Superman? A 20th-level wizard would clean his clock. Even if Superman made every saving throw roll, a high-level wizard has so many options at his command, he can easily catch Supes in a no-save spell. A single 20th-level wizard has more options, and more powerful options than the entire Justice League combined. And that's before even considering magic equipment.

There is no argument -- high-level D&D characters are, indeed, super powered characters. But they were not born with this amazing, super power. They did not get it all at once in some mutation, or freak chemical reaction, or even some magical experiment. A 20th-level D&D character worked up from 1st level, gaining power in small, incremental steps. A 3rd-level D&D character is not super powered compared to a 1st-level character. An 8th-level character is not super powered compared to a 6th-level character. A 13th-level character is not super powered compared to a 10th-level character. A 20th-level character is not super powered compared to an 18th-level character. The power did not come at a big jump. The power increase is relatively slow, gained through many adventures, over many months or years, in game time and real world time.

And this is all a good thing. There's nothing wrong with playing a super hero-like character in a non-super hero world. If that character was built up from low level, through the normal ways -- adventuring, overcoming obstacles, surviving dangers -- gaining the super power levels feels natural and smooth.

A comic book super hero character usually starts his or her career with super powers. They are either born with them, or at some point they go from 1st level normal person to 20th level super hero in one jump. But D&D characters usually start their career at 1st-level hero, then work up to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and a long last, 20th-level hero, through a lot of work.

Comic book super heroes are usually far above all other people in the world, powerwise. You have normal people, and then you have super powered people. There's a huge gulf between the two, like having 1st-level people and 20th-level people, and no one in between. But in a D&D world, you don't have 1st-level normal people and then 20th-level super characters. You have a wide array of levels throughout the world. There are 19th, 18th, 17th, 16th, and 15th-level characters as well as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th-level characters. Sure, the high-level characters will be fewer, far fewer as the levels rise, but they are there.

Only when you look at the end result in isolation from all the work up to that point does the high-level character seem strangely super powered.

Bullgrit - www.TotalBullgrit.com
 

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Bullgrit said:
Superman? A 20th-level wizard would clean his clock. Even if Superman made every saving throw roll, a high-level wizard has so many options at his command, he can easily catch Supes in a no-save spell. A single 20th-level wizard has more options, and more powerful options than the entire Justice League combined. And that's before even considering magic equipment.

Superman is vulnerable to Magic (one reason Shazam can clean his clock).

However, keep in mind that his Str, Dex, and Con are all probably in the low 60s. And his Fly speed is... well, faster than a speeding bullet.

High level D&D characters are Super, but they're not Superman.

Edit: That said, our Planescape party is gestalt level 15... and we are Super (Our "rogue/wizard" can solo CR 30 stuff... no joke).

another edit: so... what is Superman's fly speed? 50,000ft (good)?
 
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The difference in power from 1st to 20th, or name level, is a strange and almost unique feature of D&D. The only other roleplaying games that have a progression like this are D&D copies such as Tunnels & Trolls.

Most superheroes go from 'zero to 'hero'. However those that got their powers from special training, such as Batman and Iron Fist could be seen to have a D&D progression. We could follow Batman up the level track from age 18 to 30 or so when he begins his costumed career.

There can be a huge gulf in power between superheroes. Compare Wildcat, a skilled boxer, with the Spectre, one of the most powerful beings in the DC universe. This gulf was pastiched brilliantly in the Mitchell & Webb sketch 'Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit'. The BMX Bandit can do wheelies on his BMX, while I'm sure you can guess what his partner's power is. :)
 

I'm not remembering who Spectre is... other than the Bond Villains :p

Doug McCrae said:
There can be a huge gulf in power between superheroes. Compare Wildcat, a skilled boxer, with the Spectre, one of the most powerful beings in the DC universe. This gulf was pastiched brilliantly in the Mitchell & Webb sketch 'Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit'. The BMX Bandit can do wheelies on his BMX, while I'm sure you can guess what his partner's power is. :)

Spectre vs Shazam?
Spectre vs Superman?
Spectre vs Silver Surfer?
 

I'm sorry. What spell does a wizard have to stop Superman in a single hit? Because, even though comic writers never take advantage of this, Superman is so ridiculously stupidly uninterestingly powerful that if he knows someone is trying to hurt him, he should just win.

Supes can apparently lift small islands (even if they're made of Kryptonite OMG!), so that puts his Strength in the solid redonkulous range. Can your wizard survive being punched for d3+redonkulous/2 damage?
 


I think when we talk about D&D in terms of superhero, I think an important issue is also the power level, like in Mutants and Masterminds.

I don't nessecarily agree that D&D 20th lvl characters = Superman. But, they definitely equal heroes that are 'training-based' or 'gear based' -- Cap'n America, Batman, possibly Iron Man (super intelligent, with an insane budget to 'buy' all his magic items/power armor) -- rather than innately powerful -- Superman, Thor, Green Lantern Corps.

I think you see it when you think of just how Batman has the means and knowledge to destroy every single member of the Justice League if need be. He is a hero that, while his resources and toys give him incredible advantages, the only thing that can stop him when he's put his mind to it is killing him. He is generally what I think of when I think of the 'high level D&D adventurer' -- he is at the pinnacle of his mental and physical prowess, he is well-equipped, well-connected, and generally speaking does not walk into a situation where... I was going to say where he's not in control, but we see him do that over and over. I think a more fair statement would be: "He does not walk into a situation where he does not know all the variables and probabilities."

Just my two cents. Again, I don't think 20th level characters = Superman, as much as they tend to equal Cap'n America and Batman.
 

I have done up Marvel superheroes using 3.0 rules for DnD and I get some neat results.

Captain America= Fighter 20 w/artifact shield and feats directed as use of shield and leadership. Stat boosts in CHA (leadership) and Dex (to throw the shield better and improve AC since he only wears Scale armor)

Hulk = Barbarian 18 / Fighter 4 with gauntlets. Str boost and more Str boost with feats involving his magical gauntlets and rage. Draconic Toughness.

Iron Man= mage 23 (in 3.5 Artificer) in maxed out armor

Wasp= fairy queen rogue 15

Hawkeye Fit 18 Fight/Mage/Arcane Archer



Some time I want to redo these for 3.5.
 

I agree that high-level characters are superheroes, actually, this is why some peoples' games lose the fun after about level 8. They level out past the fun part of heroic fantasy that they like, and into the wuxia/supers that they really don't enjoy.

Don't want superheroes in your game? Play d20 E6 style (see the sig).
 

Bayushi Seikuro said:
Just my two cents. Again, I don't think 20th level characters = Superman, as much as they tend to equal Cap'n America and Batman.


When I did my Adventurers game I had the low of Black Widow at 13th level to Thor whom was 24th level. In truth, he should have been higher than even that. Most of the characters I did were between 18 and 20 in level.
 

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