D&D General D&D without Resource Management

Would you like D&D to have less resource management?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 16.0%
  • Yes but only as an optional variant of play

    Votes: 12 9.2%
  • Yes but only as a individual PC/NPC/Monster choice

    Votes: 3 2.3%
  • No

    Votes: 30 22.9%
  • No but I'd definitely play another game with less resource management

    Votes: 14 10.7%
  • No. If anything it needs even more resource management

    Votes: 39 29.8%
  • Somewhar. Shift resource manage to another part of the game like gold or items

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • Somewhat. Tie resource manage to the playstyle and genre mechanics.

    Votes: 11 8.4%

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
The paladin who can smite 5 times each combat.
So, I read this too fast and thought, "what!? Paladins smile way more than that. They're charismatic!"

Fiends who can out leash spells until one side does off.
. . . ? I guess, nudity negates spell in-leashing.

In the recent D&D playtests, there is a nudge to give every class major benefits from taking both long and short rests. . .
Well yeah. Stamina is a thing. Just ask Dark Souls.

Uh oh.

Is 6e chasing another video game market? This could be bad. But I'd gladly play another game that has less resource management, namely in the hit points department. Three-digit numbers are less immersive than two-digit numbers.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
It was a bold attempt to recontextualise the resources. I think ultimately they made bad call in making each resource individual and independent, meaning that the limit was using each power once during given time, not some shared pool of uses. It led to the need for powers not to be situational, as not being able to use the power would limit your total power pool, not just your versatility. And this led to the common complaints about tripping gelatinous cubes and scaring mindless creatures etc. But from gamist perspective it made sense why one would want powers to almost always work in such a system. Still, they dropped the ball in a major way with this, as a ton of powers required multiple targets to be effective, whilst it is a common fantasy trope having the characters to fight one tough creature.
The problem is, 4e did offer a shared resource that could be put to use in various different things. That's how the (non-Monk) Psionic classes worked.

It was bad.

What 4e "power point" classes revealed was, when you have shared resources like that, you just spam the strongest option you have every time. Maybe, occasionally, you'll pick something else because a special situation has arisen and made that other thing best just for that situation. But most of the time, you'll just spam the best option and ignore everything else.

I'm not saying it's impossible to get, say, one class that works this way, that has a single resource pool and manages to still be interesting and induce real choices. But making every class work that way? No, you're going to crash straight into "spam X, it's the best choice, ignore everything else" with the possible caveat of "except in <situation, e.g. "fighting many opponents">, then use Y because it's better for that."

We already have problems with a small handful of spells being ridiculously good most of the time. Ditto, we have problems with BM maneuvers being "pick the two/three best and ignore the rest." This would just make everyone have that problem.

Hard disagree on this. Way too gamist for my liking. Your magical power or physical stamina etc shouldn't care whether the exertion happens during a combat or out of it. Furthermore, I don't think it is even good for gameplay. Having to decide whether to use a resource now to overcome an out of combat problem or save it in case you need it in fight later is perfectly valid and interesting decision to make.
The problem is, this leads directly to poor, un-fun gameplay--demonstrably so. Because people will refuse to make the choice you describe here. They will instead take control of the rest mechanic, which the game permits them to do, and thus have their cake and eat it too.

And the only way to stop them is to either get draconian about when they're allowed to rest, or to constantly put them under verisimilitude-breaking time pressure that is somehow perfectly content with them taking multiple hour-long breaks but absolutely forbids them from taking one eight-hour break. That is, doing something like that now and then is perfectly reasonable. Having such time pressure all the time is patently ridiculous--but unless you DO have it all the time, then 100% of the time they aren't under such pressure, most players will exploit it.

Players optimize the fun out of games. It's a well-known problem, and D&D has suffered from it many times.
 
Last edited:

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Some of it is about realism or at least verisimilitude, but you're right, it is not the main reason. Resources enable tactical play about when to use them. They also enable things to go badly without a complete defeat. A fight starts to go badly, but you burn your big spells and all manoeuvres and make it though with a handful of HP left. A narrow victory with a cost. Except if we have a system where all these resources are encounter based, and are automatically replenished for the next time you need to use them, then there was no cost! This leads outcomes being binary, either you win and are perfectly fine or you get completely defeated, with characters being dead or at least captured.
This is not correct.

Encounter-based abilities have the cost in the tactical layer. That's...literally what it says on the tin. You used it in round 1, so now you don't have it in round 4.

Dismissing tactical-level resource costs and exclusively focusing on strategic-level resource costs is one of the big reasons why D&D gameplay can become really really stale. That is exactly the kind of thinking that turns fights into dull "fat bag of HP" punch-fests, because it ignores the possibility of interesting, meaningful choices within combat.

You are correct that there is no strategic cost involved. You are incorrect to think that strategic costs are the only relevant or interesting costs to design games around.
 

The problem is, 4e did offer a shared resource that could be put to use in various different things. That's how the (non-Monk) Psionic classes worked.

It was bad.

The problem is, when you have shared resources like that, you just spam the strongest option you have every time. Maybe, occasionally, you'll pick something else because a special situation has arisen and made that other thing best just for that situation. But most of the time, you'll just spam the best option and ignore everything else.

I'm not saying it's impossible to get, say, one class that works this way, that has a single resource pool and manages to still be interesting and induce real choices. But making every class work that way? No, you're going to crash straight into "spam X, it's the best choice, ignore everything else" with the possible caveat of "except in <situation, e.g. "fighting many opponents">, then use Y because it's better for that."

We already have problems with a small handful of spells being ridiculously good most of the time. Ditto, we have problems with BM maneuvers being "pick the two/three best and ignore the rest." This would just make everyone have that problem.

Then balance things better! There should not be "best power." I know it is hard, but that is not an excuse for not attempting it and having a weird single use powers instead.

The problem is, this leads directly to poor, un-fun gameplay--demonstrably so. Because people will refuse to make the choice you describe here. They will instead take control of the rest mechanic, which the game permits them to do, and thus have their cake and eat it too.

And the only way to stop them is to either get draconian about when they're allowed to rest, or to constantly put them under verisimilitude-breaking time pressure that is somehow perfectly content with them taking multiple hour-long breaks but absolutely forbids them from taking one eight-hour break. That is, doing something like that now and then is perfectly reasonable. Having such time pressure all the time is patently ridiculous--but unless you DO have it all the time, then 100% of the time they aren't under such pressure, most players will exploit it.

Players optimize the fun out of games. It's a well-known problem, and D&D has suffered from it many times.

Now the rests work is not ideal. I find gritty rests with "sanctuary" requirement for long rests work for me really well. In any case, there should not be spells that lets bypass the rest limitation, those were the first thing I removed. Once we are at longer timespans than day, having some sort of story pressure that doesn't allow endlessly resting whenever becomes rather naturally. Granted, the game doesn't offer much advice on how to do this.
 

This is not correct.

Encounter-based abilities have the cost in the tactical layer. That's...literally what it says on the tin. You used it in round 1, so now you don't have it in round 4.

Dismissing tactical-level resource costs and exclusively focusing on strategic-level resource costs is one of the big reasons why D&D gameplay can become really really stale. That is exactly the kind of thinking that turns fights into dull "fat bag of HP" punch-fests, because it ignores the possibility of interesting, meaningful choices within combat.

You are correct that there is no strategic cost involved. You are incorrect to think that strategic costs are the only relevant or interesting costs to design games around.
It was not incorrect, I just didn't go into detail about individual combats. All my observations about the effects on the gameplay as whole stand.
 

Reynard

Legend
I t5hink we could probably get rid of slots and per X uses and so on. I mean, John Wick doesn't have a limited number of times he can neck shoot someone. Superman doesn't have a limited number of heat rays. Characters should be able to do what they can do. Just eliminate easy healing and use HP as your pacing mechanism.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
It was not incorrect, I just didn't go into detail about individual combats. All my observations about the effects on the gameplay as whole stand.
Certainly not; you said that, and I quote, "Furthermore, I don't think it is even good for gameplay."

It is perfectly good for gameplay. It's just not strategic-level gameplay. By design. D&D includes both tactical and strategic design. Pretending that only one of those matters is simply false.

Then balance things better! There should not be "best power." I know it is hard, but that is not an excuse for not attempting it and having a weird single use powers instead.
And I'm saying you can do that with one or two classes. You're not going to be able to do it with a dozen classes. It's just not feasible at that scale.

Now the rests work is not ideal. I find gritty rests with "sanctuary" requirement for long rests work for me really well. In any case, there should not be spells that lets bypass the rest limitation, those were the first thing I removed. Once we are at longer timespans than day, having some sort of story pressure that doesn't allow endlessly resting whenever becomes rather naturally. Granted, the game doesn't offer much advice on how to do this.
And there's a reason "gritty" rests are not something people use or want in most games. Expecting folks to do that is expecting people to spontaneously choose to behave in ways they demonstrably haven't for years.

That ship has sailed. Or, if you prefer, saled. There's no appetite for making everything "gritty" rests.
 

Certainly not; you said that, and I quote, "Furthermore, I don't think it is even good for gameplay."
Well I don't think it is good gameplay. You can think differently.

It is perfectly good for gameplay. It's just not strategic-level gameplay. By design. D&D includes both tactical and strategic design. Pretending that only one of those matters is simply false.
But I don't want to get rid of strategic level gameplay. Having resources not be encounter based on the other hand doesn't remove tactical gameplay.

And I'm saying you can do that with one or two classes. You're not going to be able to do it with a dozen classes. It's just not feasible at that scale.
Yes it is. A ton of classes use spells, and whilst there are some spells that are too good or too weak, spellcaster play is not just spamming one good spell (unless you're a warlock.)

And there's a reason "gritty" rests are not something people use or want in most games. Expecting folks to do that is expecting people to spontaneously choose to behave in ways they demonstrably haven't for years.
Yes, the reason is that it is not the deafult option, but an obscure foortnote in DMG. Most people just use the deafult setup and do not even stop to consider if it is optimal for the sort of game they want to have. Then again, most people really don't even care about the sort of issues people here constantly whine about, so the default seems to work well enough for them.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I agree. if you use "per encounter" resource management, then the outcomes of those encounters will tend toward the binary (although "win" and "lose" will still have multiple forms). The texture and nuance to play comes from the aggregate wins and losses in the scenario. The mountain defeated us so we had to go through Moria.
Agreed. Also, while resource management is not in and of itself necessarily about verisimilitude, the encounter-based kind tends towards the relentlessly gamist IMO, and in my preference would be softened as much as is practical so that the effects of being resource-poor feel like they matter beyond the encounter at hand.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I t5hink we could probably get rid of slots and per X uses and so on. I mean, John Wick doesn't have a limited number of times he can neck shoot someone. Superman doesn't have a limited number of heat rays. Characters should be able to do what they can do. Just eliminate easy healing and use HP as your pacing mechanism.
I dont want to emulate any of those things in my D&D.
 

Remove ads

Top