D&D3.x Noob Questions: Leveling Rate/How to Stock a Dungeon?

[Gary N. Mengle]

Long story, but the short of it is that I've a hankering to run D&D3.5 in a more-or-less traditional (i. e. Dungeoncrawly) way. But I have a couple of issues.

First is that, after drawing up a rather nice dungeon map, I realized that I have no idea how to stock a dungeon and build encounters in 3.5. I know how I would do this in Rolemaster, but it's been ages since I've played D&D3.x, and I've actually never run it before. What's a good model dungeon in the level 1-3 range for me to take a look at?

Second is that I want to employ what I call "Gygaxian Advancement," which is more or less the polar opposite of the rate at which characters advance in whitebread 3.5. Simply adjusting the rate at which XP is handed out seems a bad idea, since characters in 3.x are balanced under the assumption of having a certain quantity of magic items for their level - so magic drops would have to be adjusted accordingly. Does anyone have any experience or insights in making this kind of adjustment, or are there any online resources for doing so?

 

[Pinotage]

Anything from the Dungeon Crawl Classics line from Goodman Games is a good example of a straight 3.5e dungeon crawl. So take a look at those to give you some ideas. Remember to keep everything dynamic so that there's not hit and run tactics from players and lots of resting. Make players regret retreating to come back on another day.

As far as advancement goes, the standard is 13 1/3 encounters of the same CR as level for advancement. In a dungeon crawl it might be easier to allow the PCs to level up at your discretion, i.e. when you think. That means you don't really have to bother about levels and you just level up when you think it's time. Often struggling with an encounter or two might be an indication that leveling up is required.

Pinotage

 

[Voadam]

Second is that I want to employ what I call "Gygaxian Advancement," which is more or less the polar opposite of the rate at which characters advance in whitebread 3.5. Simply adjusting the rate at which XP is handed out seems a bad idea, since characters in 3.x are balanced under the assumption of having a certain quantity of magic items for their level - so magic drops would have to be adjusted accordingly. Does anyone have any experience or insights in making this kind of adjustment, or are there any online resources for doing so?

Figure out how long you want it to be between advancements, figure out how much loot you want to give between levels (based on the DMG figures for PC wealth by level) and then spread out the treasure accordingly.

Humanoids generally have more loot (particularly ones with class levels) while beasties have less but there is nothing wrong with ogres in loin cloths with clubs and no piles of gold.

If things are out of wack there are still things like rust monsters for eating metal valuables, plus now plenty of monsters with improved sunder (such as giants and earth elementals) who can break valuable magic weapons or wands, etc if you feel the need to go corrective through encounters.

 

[Corsair]

Lowering XP is easy as long as you use a lot of foes that don't carry gear.

 

[Dandu]

Don't go by CR. The CR system was invented by drunk WotC employees playing darts with CR ratings as a dartboard.

 

[Gary N. Mengle]

Don't go by CR. The CR system was invented by drunk WotC employees playing darts with CR ratings as a dartboard.

Well, I figured CR was only useful as a rule of thumb anyway. Does Pathfinder use CR, and if so, do they work better?

Thanks to everybody for the advice - I'm having a look at one of the early Dungeon Crawl Classics - Lost Vault of Tsathzar Rho - for inspiration.

 

[Voadam]

Well, I figured CR was only useful as a rule of thumb anyway. Does Pathfinder use CR, and if so, do they work better?

Thanks to everybody for the advice - I'm having a look at one of the early Dungeon Crawl Classics - Lost Vault of Tsathzar Rho - for inspiration.

CR is a useful rule of thumb. Pathfinder does use it as well. There was some re-evaluation as people got more experience with the system and some things got changed when the system went from 3.0 to 3.5 and then Paizo did some changes going from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

For instance ogres are CR 2 in 3.0 and are re-evaluated to CR 3 in 3.5 I believe.

Vault of Tzathar Rho has an ogre in it and was originally an early 3.0 one. I think there was a 3.5 revision and reissue of it. An ogre is a very dangerous encounter for a 1st level party, he can kill a 1st level PC with one shot very easily.

In Pathfinder I believe Paizo kept the CRs the same but changed some monster abilities to fit their CR better. As an example I think they changed the low CR allip to do temporary wisdom damage which low level characters can handle instead of permanent wisdom drain which higher level characters can cure but lower level ones lack the resources to do anything about.

 

[Corsair]

There will never be a perfect way to evaluate monsters in a vacuum. Depending on lot on the makeup/tactics favored by the players and the party composition, lots of monsters (particularly with odd powers or vulnerabilities) will be much more or much less effective than expected.

This is one of those areas that you just need to practice with.

I recommend using lots of smaller, weaker foes first to get an idea of your parties capabilities, then slowly ramp up difficulty of the foes. Unending hordes of zombies (or kobolds, or whatever) give the illusion of a threat without the risk of accidentally one-shotting a new PC.

 

[Verdande]

You could always do it like I do it: Design your encounters with the real world in mind, and adjust fire based on how the players are handling it.

Maybe you design a kobold warren with too many spellcasters? So what, just take a couple out or remove them or whatever.