Pathfinder 1E D&D4 and Pathfinder can coexist

[ProfessorCirno]

So I'm the only one that listens to the Star Trek fight music whenever I log on to the internet?

Da da DAAA DAAA DAAA DAAA DAAA DAAA DA DA DAAA DA!

Anyways, we're all geeks, nerds, dorks, etc. here. We're not known for calm, rational thought once the subject of our hobbies come up. Stereotypically, we hold things in only two regards: Best ever, and worst ever.

 

[Felix]

I think the major concern is that, no, they cannot sustain themselves while the other is around. With the new edition comes a split in the RPG market, and perhaps two systems competing to be the standard will result in only one remaining. "Remaining" as in, continued support and material published for it. Sure, the Fun Police won't confiscate your books, but you won't see anything new.

Suppose you think this way: maybe you think that everyone supporting the other system is one less person supporting your system; perhaps you think that every new customer convinced to stay with the old or go with the new makes new material less and less likely; maybe you see internet "discussions" influencing the online support of your system. So someone with a less than level head may see every post supporting the other edition erroding the future hopes of their favorite system.

Similarly, the Dreamcast and the X-Box didn't get along. Sega Saturn didn't fare too well gainst the Super Nintendo. The Gamecube got stomped on. Apple and Microsoft have been trading body blows since they cooperatively mugged Xerox. VHS drove a stake through Betamax. So it's an understandable for people to be concerned when they see a competitor threaten their hobby horse of choice. Add in the ease of rudeness that internet anonymity provides and you have what you've been reading; not that this excuses people's behavior, I just don't think it's as simple as, "Play nice, children."

 

[Darrin Drader]

I think the major concern is that, no, they cannot sustain themselves while the other is around. With the new edition comes a split in the RPG market, and perhaps two systems competing to be the standard will result in only one remaining. "Remaining" as in, continued support and material published for it. Sure, the Fun Police won't confiscate your books, but you won't see anything new.

Suppose you think this way: maybe you think that everyone supporting the other system is one less person supporting your system; perhaps you think that every new customer convinced to stay with the old or go with the new makes new material less and less likely; maybe you see internet "discussions" influencing the online support of your system. So someone with a less than level head may see every post supporting the other edition erroding the future hopes of their favorite system.

Similarly, the Dreamcast and the X-Box didn't get along. Sega Saturn didn't fare too well gainst the Super Nintendo. The Gamecube got stomped on. Apple and Microsoft have been trading body blows since they cooperatively mugged Xerox. VHS drove a stake through Betamax. So it's an understandable for people to be concerned when they see a competitor threaten their hobby horse of choice. Add in the ease of rudeness that internet anonymity provides and you have what you've been reading; not that this excuses people's behavior, I just don't think it's as simple as, "Play nice, children."

I agree with everything you said here. I would also like to add that the erroneous assumptions that you list generally assume that both products are vying for the same level of marketshare, that they both are being equally invested in, that they both require the same level of success, and that eventually there will only be one standing. I'd argue that none of these assumptions are true.

We already know that Wizards sales are going to be greater than Pathfinder's sales by several orders of magnitude. It's not even a question. WotC has the D&D brand name, which has enormous recognition, a huge marketing presence, and a 30 year history backing it up. I'd be willing to bet that a good percentage of the people buying the new books haven't bought anything for years because they aren't avid fans and just get together with their friends once every few weeks to play the game, along with the three or four books they've bought over the last eight years. I'd also not be at all surprised if there has been a lot of mixing 3.0 and 3.5 books.

Pathfinder doesn't even need 1/10th of WotC's core customer base to survive. That isn't to say that they don't need a loyal customer base, because they do, but their sales numbers aren't going to rival WotC's, nor are they expected to. Their Pathfinder RPG sales are for people who prefer to run their Pathfinder APs, their modules, or simply want an upgraded version of 3.5 to play with. That's it, and it seems to be going well for them.

If for some reason Pathfinder were to eclipse D&D, which is possible though unlikely, it would be a real David and Goliath story, and the shift would take years to occur. If they were to increase by that level of magnitude, I'm not sure I'd still be onboard with them because the company could start looking appealing to some large corporations, which would offer obscene amounts of money to buy it, which would result in the future of the game being beholden to the shareholders rather than a single owner of a business and its fans. In other words, I like Paizo because it's small. I don't want it to get too large.

So to sum up my points, Pathfinder and D&D will coexist. From the looks of things, they'll coexist for a very long time, and with luck, they'll still be coexisting when D&D goes 5th edition.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

[SIZE=-2]Why don't my gaming books bleed when I throw them at each other?[/SIZE]

bludgeoning damage?

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think the major concern is that, no, they cannot sustain themselves while the other is around.

Link the Wisdom of Monte Cook

Kevin and Coleman taught me that in the game industry, despite the way it appeared from the consumer level, there wasn't a lot of actual competition. TSR and D&D certainly weren't the competition. In the late 80s/early 90s, ICE and other "second-tier" companies like GDW, Steve Jackson, and West End fed off the scraps that TSR left behind, and were happy to do so. Almost without exception, every member of our various audiences was a former D&D player. That person left D&D looking for something simpler, something more complicated, or something different, and all the second tier companies offered the customer their various options. But the options were really so different that these game companies didn't have to fight over customers that much.

I dont' get why people think that Paizo is competing with Wizards. They're not. If anything they're competing with GR for market share with their True20 system. But even then, they're not. True20 gamers want a more rules light system then Paizo is offering. Paizo is offering something alot closer to 3.5 then True20 customers want.

Customers that want to player 4E are going to play 4E, regardless of what Paizo does. Customers that are not interested in 4E and want to keep playing 3.5 (or a close variant) are not going to come back to Wizards, no matter what Wizards does.

 

[Jackelope King]

There's also the radical possibility that some gamers might like both games. Sort of like how I'm excited about Pathfinder, pleased with 4e, enjoying Mutants & Masterminds and True20, and only wishing he had the time and the groups to play them all. There could be people out there like that, right?

... nah.

 

[thundershot]

All that matters is that the hobby is being supported....





Chris

 

[Felix]

I agree with everything you said here. I would also like to add that the erroneous assumptions that you list ... I'd argue that none of these assumptions are true.

No doubt. But it doesn't mean people aren't making them and turning them into internet vitriol.

I dont' get why people think that Paizo is competing with Wizards.

Paizo is trying to sustain a former standard; to keep people from converting by producing a quality product using a system people are familiar with. Wizards is trying to sell a new system and establish it as the new standard.

Many gamers will be confronted with the choice to convert or not. Do I go with Paizo so I can still consistently use the 30 books I bought for 3e? Do I go with D&D and its offerings of online support and streamlined gameplay?

And yeah, you'll get some Coke-drinkers who won't eat at a resturant with a Pepsi soda fountain; I suspect that they are the minority. The rest are those Paizo, WotC, GR, et al are competing over. Paizo may not be trying to become the new standard, but they want as large a customer base as they can affordably keep.

Customers that want to player 4E are going to play 4E, regardless of what Paizo does. Customers that are not interested in 4E and want to keep playing 3.5 (or a close variant) are not going to come back to Wizards, no matter what Wizards does.

And Republican candidates don't try to court the folks way out on the left in the same way Democratic candidates don't try to court the folks way out on the right. It doesn't mean they aren't going to compete tooth and nail over the folks who are still considering their options.

 

[Dragonhelm]

I think the major concern is that, no, they cannot sustain themselves while the other is around. With the new edition comes a split in the RPG market, and perhaps two systems competing to be the standard will result in only one remaining. "Remaining" as in, continued support and material published for it.

I disagree with the idea that the market cannot sustain more than one major RPG.

Similarly, the Dreamcast and the X-Box didn't get along. Sega Saturn didn't fare too well gainst the Super Nintendo. The Gamecube got stomped on. Apple and Microsoft have been trading body blows since they cooperatively mugged Xerox. VHS drove a stake through Betamax.

Perhaps, but let's also look at cases where competitors continue to co-exist and even thrive. Marvel and DC (even after Image changed things). Coke and Pepsi. Post and Kellogs cereals.

Now, it is entirely possible that only one between 4e and Pathfinder will survive. However, I think this is unlikely. This isn't a situation where the market is looking for a single standard (ala VHS and Betamax or HD-DVD and Blu-Ray). The market already is supporting various game systems (C&C, Cortex, d6, GURPS, True20, M&M, Arcana Evolved, etc.).

Yes, Pathfinder is a strong competitor for WotC. This is a good thing. Competition could lead to better products. Each company can look at the other and see where they can make improvements to their products. The end results could be better quality products.

We, as human beings, have the nasty habit of polarizing things. Right or wrong. Liberal or Conservative. Good or evil. Paper or plastic. And so on and so forth. Yet the reality is that life is full of choices and shades of grey.

Perhaps we should look more at what unifies us rather than what divides us. I am a gamer. I like playing 4th edition, and I like playing Pathfinder. I wouldn't mind having the two working together some. I plan on buying both 4th edition and Pathfinder products. I'm also going to buy products for other systems that catch my eye.

As a gamer, I realize that all these game editions are just a tool for conflict resolution. While rules can be fun, it is the comaraderie, role-playing, and adventure that draw me back. We all have our preferences on what engine we use to drive the game, yet I think that invariably it is the journey and the destination that matters most.

So here's to both Pathfinder and 4th edition. May they both continue to thrive.

 

[Henry]

Quite frankly it baffles me that any hobby gamer would want D&D to fail. Where do these vocal detractors think the majority of new blood for 3.5 and Pathfinder games is going to come from? For the most part, it'll come from 4e players who try 4e, get hooked on tabletop gaming in general, and then want something different. There might be some players who come directly to these games from scratch, but the number of that versus the number of players for whom D&D was the gateway is going to be very small. It's been born out both in players' stories, and in surveys that WotC has conducted over the past 10 years.

So, YAY, 4E! WOO-HOO! GO PATHFINDER! Keep bringin' in that new blood!