D&D General D&D's feel vs. what D&D should keep - final comparison

[TheSword]

So what you're telling me is that the actual concept is worse than useless?

It’s one characteristic not the main event.

Dozens << Infinite. And the primary property presented in the overview is infinite.

I said denizens not dozens.

So can most settings. And they do it without having lots of infinite planes. Infinite is a completely different concept to really really massive. And infinite is a great concept for exploring vastness and majesty. I'm not "getting hung up on the concept" so much as responding to the concept as presented. Infinity is a great concept for some things. Like I say, space is effectively infinite. It's just not great for adventuring.

I feel that at this point you’re not interested in discussing the setting just repeating your dislike of the principle of something not having finite borders. It seems like a pretty specific and not massively important detail to focus on.

 

[TheSword]

I’ve also never understood the hate on Yugoloths. Devils will make a deal and honour it. Demons won’t make a deal in the first place, they will just try to rip you apart/seduce you. Yugoloths though will make a deal with you and stick to it right up to when it doesn’t suit their purposes. They’re the mercenaries that are only as loyal as you pay them and only until some comes along who pays more. Ultimate selfishness and bottomless greed. Liars and deceivers. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I’ve also never understood the hate on Yugoloths. Devils will make a deal and honour it. Demons won’t make a deal in the first place, they will just try to rip you apart/seduce you. Yugoloths though will make a deal with you and stick to it right up to when it doesn’t suit their purposes. They’re the mercenaries that are only as loyal as you pay them and only until some comes along who pays more. Ultimate selfishness and bottomless greed. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Their name is stupid, they're not rooted in folklore/mythology like Demons, Devils, and Fiends, they all look ridiculous, and they're both more lawful and chaotic than both Devils (devils generally don't do mercenary work, cause money typically means nothing to them, unless it's with Soul Coins or Mammon) and Demons (the whole "which one of you is truly chaotic, the ones who are predictable at betraying others, or the ones that are always scheming for the right moment?" debate).

 

[Vaalingrade]

The Great Wheel is a place where alignment is at its best. Alignment is intrinsic and essential to the fundamental structure of the multiverse in the Planescape version of the Great Wheel, and in that setting alignment works.

And that's why I want Planescape to be a published setting again: so alignment can be in it's place and not bother anyone else anymore.

I really hate that Planescape by default pokes itself into all the other settings by being ALL OF EXISTENCE. And take the Far Realm and it's Lovecraft fetish with it, please.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I really hate that Planescape by default pokes itself into all the other settings by being ALL OF EXISTENCE. And take the Far Realm and it's Lovecraft fetish with it, please.

Yeah! That's Spelljammer's job!

 

[TheSword]

Their name is stupid, they're not rooted in folklore/mythology like Demons, Devils, and Fiends, they all look ridiculous, and they're both more lawful and chaotic than both Devils (devils generally don't do mercenary work, cause money typically means nothing to them, unless it's with Soul Coins or Mammon) and Demons (the whole "which one of you is truly chaotic, the ones who are predictable at betraying others, or the ones that are always scheming for the right moment?" debate).

Ah, ok. We’re down to calling them ‘stupid’ now. At this point I think I’ll disengage. I have no problem with a type of fiend that’s not bound to law or chaos.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Ah, ok. We’re down to calling them ‘stupid’ now.

I said their name was stupid, not them as a whole, though I'm not fond of them, and do find them a bit silly (I know, I know, lots of D&D is silly, but Fiends aren't supposed to be, IMO. Fiends are supposed to be scary, not wacky). I certainly don't mean to offend anyone that does like them, I'm just stating my opinion as someone fairly new to the hobby.

"Devils" and "Demons" both roll off the tongue, as does "Fiend", but Yugoloth doesn't. "Yoo-goh-loth" doesn't sound like a 3rd main category of fiends, it sound's like you're cheering for someone with a peculiar name at a sports event "You go, Loth!" or saying that someone is reluctantly leaving.

At this point I think I’ll disengage. I have no problem with a type of fiend that’s not bound to law or chaos.

I have no problem with it, either, I just think that Yugoloths are not good at doing that thing and were just made for grid-filling. There could have easily been another class/category of Neutral Evil fiends, and I don't think Yugoloths are good at fulfilling the idea of one.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Great Wheel is a place where alignment is at its best. Alignment is intrinsic and essential to the fundamental structure of the multiverse in the Planescape version of the Great Wheel, and in that setting alignment works.

And how does that match up to the Factions of Sigil?

The other premise of Sigil's factions is "the more people who believe the basic laws of the universe work a certain way, the more the universe tends to work in just that way". The Great Wheel on the other hand is immutable, inhuman, and inherently indicates some sort of balance between good and evil. If there was a faction within Sigil that held sway and the one thing the other factions could agree on was that they wanted them deposed to start to shatter the Great Wheel then that would assist the theme. But it isn't there as far as I can tell. Which means that the Great Wheel only works if you throw away the central conceit of the factions and of the central city to Planescape.

The vast, inhuman symmetry of the Great Wheel that sorts everyone and everything onto its predetermined boxes is a good match for the vast, inhuman planes whose single biggest shared characteristic is that they are infinite. And works in a setting like Dragonlance where the nonsense of "balance between good and evil" is something that must be preserved.

The infinite planes could also work exceptionally well for a nautical-inspired setting like Spelljammer; while the sea might not actually be infinite it is massive and you can easily get lost in it for days, never seeing land - especially when the wind is blowing. It's a strong trait for some settings.

The reason it works, is because in the great wheel Alignment comes first and then individuals are free to act their own way and then deal with the consequences of that. The variations of alignment inform the nature of the plane. The concept of Strongly aligned and Mildly aligned work together to create some very interesting concepts.

I see how you see that, thank you.

 

[TheSword]

I said their name was stupid, not them as a whole, though I'm not fond of them, and do find them a bit silly (I know, I know, lots of D&D is silly, but Fiends aren't supposed to be, IMO. Fiends are supposed to be scary, not wacky). I certainly don't mean to offend anyone that does like them, I'm just stating my opinion as someone fairly new to the hobby.

"Devils" and "Demons" both roll off the tongue, as does "Fiend", but Yugoloth doesn't. "Yoo-goh-loth" doesn't sound like a 3rd main category of fiends, it sound's like you're cheering for someone with a peculiar name at a sports event "You go, Loth!" or saying that someone is reluctantly leaving.

I have no problem with it, either, I just think that Yugoloths are not good at doing that thing and were just made for grid-filling. There could have easily been another class/category of Neutral Evil fiends, and I don't think Yugoloths are good at fulfilling the idea of one.

Well it’s devils, demons and daemons.

Baatezu, Tanar’ri and Yugoloth so I guess they don’t have the monopoly on unusual names. Though I don’t see how it’s any worse that Githyanki, Aasimar, Slaad or Modron. Ultimately I think you either get the aesthetic or you don’t. Or if you don’t like one elements, don’t include them.

I personally think Yugoloth’s are pretty cool. Arcanaloth for instance are used over and over again in all sorts of adventures and in my opinion make far better tempted and brokers of power than glabrezu do.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ah, ok. We’re down to calling them ‘stupid’ now.

They said the name was stupid. Not everyone appreciates the true evil of affordable cars.