d20 backlash??

[Akrasia]

Seriously, though, yes, there are hordes of them. Go hang out on rpg.net for a while, where you can't swing a stick without hitting references to a dozen of them.

Yes, I hang out at RPG.net as well. For better or worse. :\

After reading Henry's post, I realized that Mearls was probably using 'rules light' in a different sense than I traditionally understand the term.

I would say that 3E, GURPS, and HERO are 'rules heavy'. If everything else is 'rules light', then I see what Mearls is getting at.

But I naturally understand systems like BRP (CoC, etc.), WoD, Unisystem (full), d6, etc. to me 'rules medium'.

On this view, finding 'rules light' systems is pretty hard in your standard LGS. One of my favourite games (cinematic Unisystem -- Buffy/Angel) counts, as does Savage Worlds, IMO. But beyond those, I don't see many genuinely 'light' systems in the two game stores I go to in the SF area (Gamescape and Endgame). I suspect that this is also the case in most other game stores.

 

[maddman75]

For those that like Rules Light games, you simply must check out the Best Ruleslight Game Evar.

There is no spoon.

 

[Ranger REG]

When you look at stuff in that light, things start to make a lot more sense. The vast majority of d20 stuff serves no useful purpose for the typical D&D group. There's a reason that WotC puts so much effort into customer feedback and market research - you'll get killed in the RPG market if you can't make stuff that gamers want or need.

Yeah, but even WotC can't please every PHB owners. Fortunate for them, most D&D gamers care about one label only: "D&D;" not that I expect the square "d20 System" label could be just as good.

 

[Melkor]

I have to agree - I found that BRP was much better suited for CoC that D20.

 

[Melkor]

I think this is a great point. For me, the "golden age of gaming" was the mid 80s, when I was between the ages of 13-17. I actually had *time* to play every weekend, and during the summer breaks, I sometimes would play for hours each day.

I really miss that.

Amen. Time is the worst enemy I have when it comes to roleplaying today. What a difference 18 years makes.

 

[GravyFingerz]

Here is your sign.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Well, based on the fact that the game is dead -- i.e. no new material is being produced for it, and Chaosium's new stuff does not support d20. Maybe Chaosium is indeed too poorly run to have taken advantage of CoC d20. I don't know about that. But the game is dead.

I have zero interest in debating this, in any case, except to remark that the BRP version is far more appropriate for the subject matter than the d20 system. I suspect that most CoC fans also realize this, hence the continued popularity of BRP CoC, and the abandonment of d20 CoC.

d20 CoC sold out in record time (I remember the announcements made to that effect here on ENWorld). It made WoTC money, and also made a bit of money for Chaosium. You have to remember that Chaosium sat on my Masks d20 conversion for 2 years before pulling the plug and giving me permission to publish on the 'net, so yes, they had material they could have published to strike while the iron was hot but did not for lack of money amongst other things. (they had lots of debt from the collectible card game investments)

Saying that a game that sold out even faster than C&C (believe me, even a small WoTC print run is much larger than a large one by Troll Lord games) was a failure seems doubious at best.

 

[Krieg]

Repeating what has been said before, from a publisher's standpoint I don't think there is any backlash apparent...rather everything points to the industry correcting itself after d20 suffered from severe market saturation.

A lot of companies rode the crest of quick d20 profits & are now falling back to their core products as the crest subsides.

There is no spoon.

Then what am I eating ice cream with?!

 

[Akrasia]

...
Saying that a game that sold out even faster than C&C (believe me, even a small WoTC print run is much larger than a large one by Troll Lord games) was a failure seems doubious at best.

Good grief. For the third time in this thread, I acknowledge that my comment regarding CoC d20's lack of success was unjustified (or at least should have been heavily qualified). Satisfied?

I also will mention, again, that my overall point -- that d20 is simply inappropriate for many games and genres, and that people are finally starting to realize this -- stands (independent of this particular example).

 

[Starman]

I also will mention, again, that my overall point -- that d20 is simply inappropriate for many games and genres, and that people are finally starting to realize this -- stands (independent of this particular example).

I've seen many people say that d20 can't handle this or that. To me, d20 is the core mechanic: roll a d20, add modifiers, check against a target number. Everything else is extra. So I don't understand how the core mechanic can be declared unsuitable for everything (unless you think the game absolutely has to have bell curve resolution). I think you can get rid of classes, feats, saving throws, etc. and still call it d20 if you base everything around the core mechanic.

So, what exactly do you, Akrasia (and everyone else) consider d20?

Starman