I understand Blackmoor is Dave Arneson's baby, and that maybe this is his attempt to "set the record straight"; to present BM as he wanted it, which he never had the chance to do at first.
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What they could have had, that would have been unique, is to present a fantasy world with a strong sci-fi element, a setting that wasn't "dragonstar" or something like that, because all the sci-fi was alien tech thatthe current medieval society couldn't possibly reproduce, so instead the tech is basically relic items, that only great heros can get access to; but more importantly the tech has changed the cultures of the setting.. the aliens who crashed their starship in the swamp are now "the fallen gods beyond the sky", and the designers could have really played up that "cargo cult" kind of impact on Blackmoor's society, religion, politics, economy, etc. etc.
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So if I am sounding upset, its only because this is one of the settings that I truely cared about.
Nisarg, I hear you. I recently acquired a copy of First Fantasy Campaign. I cut my teeth on DA1, Adventures in Blackmoor (my very first module, BTW). I have copies of DA1-DA4, and have read the Blackmoor Gazetteer (google it online). I have read them all many, many times over - DA1 still stands out to me as the "perfect" adventure module - 48 pages, of which 20 were setting, 15 were NPCs and their motivations, and 13 or so was "dungeon" (well, inn, but set up much like a dungeon).
I have loved Blackmoor and been voraciously devouring every scrap of information I could find for 20-odd years. As I said, I have always seen DA1 to be the epitome of RPG setting product.
I just received the new hardcover in the mail two days ago. I'm still reading through it.
Right now, my only complaint is, "not enough Rogues, Regents, and Rascals" - I want MORE stories about them and their exploits. But thus far, the rest of the book... I've liked.
I will post a (very) thorough review, including (I hope) cross-referencing DA1-4 and the FFC to show how it all fits together, once I have time to digest it (no sooner than next week, to be sure). I will refrain from posting more on it until I can give it that thorough treatment - I'm not a Blackmoor scholar like some, but I know the setting pretty doggone well (and in fact, Dave Arneson actually picked off a copy of DA3 from me in an e-bay auction long ago, though he probably doesn't remember it was me - I still remember seeing his name and address on that check), and I feel pretty connected to it, and I hope I can do a review that examines both its merits as a "d20 product" AND as a "Blackmoor" product.
Also, consider that, as mentioned above, 240 pages just isn't enough to put in everything. You simply can't fit the Peshwa, the Afridhi, the Duchy of Ten, the City of the Gods, the Temple of the Frog, the High Hak, the Duchy of the Peaks, Castle Blackmoor, and all the other things in there and do them ALL justice. You have to take the time to examine each in turn. I see this as more like the FR Campaign Setting book versus the "Unapproachable East" and "Lords of Darkness" and goodness know how many other "area-specific" supplements are out there now... Blackmoor is like the FR Campaign Setting - it has to give you the grand overview; it might "zoom in" on a few details, but there's simply not enough room to "zoom" on everything.
Besides, IIRC, laser swords et al were rather downplayed in most of the published material; IIRC, the only "technology" from the City of the Gods extant in DA1 was an Amulet of Proof vs. Telepathy and ESP worn by the Fetch, and if they hadn't mentioned he got it on a mission into the City of the Gods, it would barely have been worth mentioning.
Heck, DA3 (very minor spoilers, safe to read unless you're a PC about to run the DA3 City of the Gods module, and even then doesn't give away much that isn't given away in the first ten minutes of play)
has the PCs going into the City of the Gods to get some of their "new magic" precisely BECAUSE nobody outside the Froggies and the City of the Gods' residents has technology in any quantity whatsoever beyond the Fetch's one item and thus
makes it clear that the City of the Gods "keeps to itself" for the most part; nobody goes near them, they don't come out to mingle with others. When you consider that the d20 Hardback is supposed to take place at least 30 years BEFORE DA3 - and conceivably before the Fetch went on his mission, it's pretty easy to theorize that "hi-tech" stuff really doesn't exist - and doesn't matter - outside of the boundaries of City of the Gods itself. A little perspective, eh?
An excellent point. Just be prepared for the old rebuttal about how he's not a "professional game designer" (as well as the usual glossing over of the fact that Bruce Baugh isn't, either).
Just be prepared for the old rebuttal about how he's not a "professional game designer" (as well as the usual glossing over of the fact that Bruce Baugh isn't, either).
Well somebody better tell WW because they have paid him for more than fifty projects.
Sorry but count me among the vast majority who feel that the GW PHB was an unmitigated mess on several different levels. While the later products in the line improved considerably, most of the GWD20 critics were so turned of by the first book that they never noticed.
For the record...Bruce's contributions to the book (mostly the short fiction) are actually pretty cool.
Actually, it wasn't WW who paid him for all those gigs, and speaking of straw man arguments, that has no bearing on the fact that he's not a professional game designer. He's a freelancer, just like me (and many others).
Krieg said:
Sorry but count me among the vast majority who feel that the GW PHB was an unmitigated mess on several different levels.
I agree. For the record, I kinda prefer the original myself, but that's entirely an aesthetic preference. The new one wasn't badly done, by any stretch.
I just bought the book this week, and never having played Blackmoor before, knowing nothing about any of the old stuff, though it looked pretty cool and well worth the purchase.
One question though (and I'm probably opening up a can of worms here) what was the history of dropping Blackmoor into Greyhawk?
As far as I can tell from comparing the (brief) entry in the GH Gazeteer and the new CS, although there are loads of similarities the maps, some of the towns, the Egg of Coot and the clockwork stuff, the GH Blackmoor seems in a different timeline. There also seems to be different races (types of elves, dwarves, human races etc) etc in each book.
As far as I can tell from comparing the (brief) entry in the GH Gazeteer and the new CS, although there are loads of similarities the maps, some of the towns, the Egg of Coot and the clockwork stuff, the GH Blackmoor seems in a different timeline. There also seems to be different races (types of elves, dwarves, human races etc) etc in each book.
By my understanding (and I'm sure Dustin will correct me if/where I'm wrong)...
The history of Blackmoor, as presented in this book and as intended by Dave Arneson from the beginning, has nothing whatsoever to do with Greyhawk. (Or Mystara, for that matter.) The decision to include Blackmoor in those settings was made by others at TSR, after Dave was long gone from the company.
In "official" Blackmoor canon--that is, anything presented in a Blackmoor book published by Zeitgeist and overseen and approved by Dave--no such thing ever happened. Blackmoor is part of its own setting, with no connection to any other.
By that standard, you should have no right to say your computer is a piece of crap unless you're Bill Gates; you also couldn't criticise the massive failures of General Ambrose Burnside in the US civil war unless you were also a civil war general, and you'd better not say that Full House was mindless television programming unless you have produced your own tv show.
Absolutely beside the point, in other words. I'm very good at my job, my job does not happen to be game design. That doesn't mean I can't criticize game designers.
Incidentally, the "butchery" reference was not so much a criticism of Baugh's Gamma World as a setting, rather it was a criticism of the fact that it was named "gamma world"; when it really has nothing to do with the spirit or flavour of the original gamma world other then being post-apocalyptic (though p-a in a totally different way from the original). I don't claim to know whether Baugh was told by powers above that he had to write the setting that way, or if it was his own personal desire to impose his own post-ap setting on the name Gamma World without the slightest concern for honouring the style of the classic setting, but in either case someone made a fundamental, monumental mistake.
To see an example of Gamma World for D20 done right, see Jonathan Tweet's Omega World. If only there could be some way to convince him to turn that into a full-blown setting (maybe for D20 future?).
But hell, even Darwin's World and Redline come closer to the real GW than the post-modernist bad-game-fiction-laden eco-fairytale that currently stole the Gamma World name.
Absolutely beside the point, in other words. I'm very good at my job, my job does not happen to be game design. That doesn't mean I can't criticize game designers.
I own Gamma World and Omega World. Gamma World was campy at times, Omega World was full blown cheese. All I could think about was the mess that system would be. Gamma World 4th ed is VERY simlar to d20 actually. . I have not read DW, as when I flipped through it I was not impressed (I'm not interested in Mutations as being that overly prevelant). Redline, in my brief skim, seemed promising (alas money is tight, and I buy mostly WotC for my d20 fix).
But hell, even Darwin's World and Redline come closer to the real GW than the post-modernist bad-game-fiction-laden eco-fairytale that currently stole the Gamma World name.
Stole? I think they paid for it, just to clarify. If you don't like S&SS d20 GW, cool. Play earlier editions. But people get tired of negativity, and you get a rep as being a poster worth ignoring whenever your handle comes up.
Then you're just talking to the air for the sake of being heard.
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Now that the hijacked thread is back on path, what are the future supplements for Blackmoor going to be?
