d20 Companies: Less = More Purchases?

Pramas said:
Well, a quick glance around confirms that this isn't true, as much as we'd like it to be. There are companies that produced quality material and got nowhere and companies that produced endless drek that are still publishing.

I know what you mean, Chris. It kills me when I see excellent products shoved aside for complete crap. Garbage that's ugly, needs an editor, and SHOULD NOT have found its way to retail shelves.

It really pisses me off when I watch people buy those garbage products.

If the market changes were allowing the cream to rise to the top it would be a stronger, more exciting market. As it is, it's a house of cards filled with bad writing, ugly art, and poor production values.
 

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Zamora said:
...I think it's a bit harsh to suggest that Atlas' d20 products weren't. They published some very useful and interesting books -- Dynasties & Demagogues, Nyambe, En Route I & II, Seven Cities to name a few. It's a shame they've decided to stop publishing d20 stuff as they were pretty good at it!

Couldn't agree more richard. If I were to make a list of ass-kicking Atlas products, it would include every item you mentioned.

If I gave the impression that I felt Atlas made crap D20 product I apologize, as nothing could be further from the truth.

But in the final analysis, my D20 Fantasy needs are being met while my hunger for Ars Magica and Feng Shui product is still there:)
 

johnsemlak said:
Fantasy Bestiary was a 3.0 product. IIRC it was released just before July 2003.

The PFB was originally supposed to be released much earlier but they took a lot of time going over every mechanic and working on getting the layout down, eventually with a January 03 planned release date. Then came the anouncement of 3.5 revisions and they decided to wait and revise it to 3.5. Then they relaized how long in work hours it would take to redo every monster's stats, check them, and then redo the layout (it is a huge book, longer than most monster books). Plus they heard there was going to be a bunch of monster books delayed to come out when 3.5 released, 3.5 MM, Dangerous Denizens of Tellene, Creature Collection Revised, etc. Having already spent a huge amount of their time and money on getting it to be finished for 3.0 they then decided to not revise it and release it when there was a flood of 3.5 books (not just monster books) coming out the day the 3.5 srd was released and it was legal to put out 3.5 material using the advance 3.5 rules the d20 publishers were given by WotC.

So unfortunately bad timing all around for the PFB.
 

If I had to choose (between Ars Magica and Feng Shui) which of them I'd like to see work done on first, it'd be Ars Magica.
 
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Teflon Billy said:
If I had to choose (between Ars Magica and Feng Shui) which of them I'd like to see work done on first, it'd be Ars Magica.

I'd choose Feng Shui myself. Ars has had a fair amount of stuff made for it. Feng Shui never seems to have gotten a full measure of support.
 

Teflon Billy said:
This'll sound mean...

I hope that Atlas is leaving the D20 market. Not becasue I don't like their stuff (I do), but I adore both Ars Magica and Feng Shui ona scale that dwarfs my like of their D20 products.

I hope they really throw themselves into those two projects like mad:)
I think they are making the right decision in leaving the D20 Market. They had too much going on, and something had to give. D20 seemed to be logical choice.
 

Ranger REG said:
Hmm. Did that product [The Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary] released before or after 3.5e (July 2003)?

It was released before 3.5.

We faced a tough choice when we got word of the 3.5 revision. The Bestiary had already taken about 3 months of full-time work each from Michelle and Scott in late 2002 and early 2003. We had to ask ourselves two questions.

1. Would the months of additional time (and employee salaries) required to update the whole book to 3.5 be repaid in extra sales?

2. Would the delay to well after the release of 3.5 mean more or less sales?

Ultimately, I decided that the answers were "no" and "less," respectively. Based on how we saw sales on new d20 books plummet after 3.5's release, I feel confident that it was the right decision. We probably sold 25%+ more books because we released the Bestiary during the comparative lull of new releases prior to 3.5, rather than during the flood of titles that had been held back until after the new edition. We were simply able to get the book on more game store shelves by having it out earlier.

Atlas Games is a full-time business, and has been for me since the early 1990's. We have salaries and health insurance to pay on four full-time employees, and this has a definite impact on the decisions we have to make, and how we make them. There are ways to make money on d20 in the current marketplace, but for the most part they don't fit into our business plan. (For example, they often involve paying writers considerably less than the 4 cents per word that Penumbra offered; printing multiple books simultaneously overseas, in order to economize on printing; and developing OGL properties that have an identity distinct from the generic "d20" perception; etc.) Hearty congratulations are due to all of those who are thriving in the face of the difficulties of this market, especially those who are continuing to publish top-notch quality material. But based on the resources we have and the way we like to work, we can do better right now by focusing on things other than d20. Just by way of example, our Cthulhu 500 card game sold more copies in its initial shipment to distributors than the Penumbra Bestiary has in its whole sales life to date...and C500's reorders are going strong.

As far as "running a business," part of doing that well is long-term planning. We made the decision to exit d20 more than a year ago...even before the Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary was released. I felt the trends in d20 were clear, and I was concerned about the impending effect of 3.5. I had some hope it might rejuvenate the market, but a bigger concern was that it could split the gamer base and increase confusion about the usability of third-party products. (Plus, making things properly 3.5-compliant means a dramatic increase in editing time [and expense] -- a lot of it rote checking for things like spells that have new names or other minor changes which authors often forget or not aware of.) As a company, we discussed a reasonable plan for how to do d20 profitably, and debated whether it was worth doing, compared to other endeavors we could turn our energies to. Ultimately, we decided there were greener pastures available to us. (Ars Magica 5th Edition was already almost a year into development; we made a deal to acquire the Dungeoneer card game; we shifted resources to additional card game products that have been coming out this year, such as Beer Money and Once Upon A Time: Dark Tales.)

We probably gave up market share by choosing not to allocate more resources to promotion and marketing the d20 lines after we made that decision. I know we've had a lower profile to d20 fans, even though our decision didn't go public until someone asked about it at Origins. (I know other publishers who have come to the same conclusion since we did, but similarly have not acknowledged it publicly, since they don't want to undermine the sales of the products still in the pipeline.) We have continued to publish all the books we'd committed to in the Penumbra line -- the last will be Seven Civilizations, in about two weeks -- while spacing them out to 2-3 months apart, compared to the original 1 per month schedule. I'm really proud of excellent books we've published, such as ENnie Award winner Crime & Punishment, and sorry that really cool books we wanted to do are not likely ever to be written.

However, we had zero debt and a healthy "war chest" in the bank thanks to the d20 boom, and it carried us through the transition, in spite of the weak d20 sales. (We even lent money to other game publishers, and most of it was repaid!) The transition has worked out great. In spite of the downturn in RPGs, our 2003 wound up beating 2002 by about 9%. Our company-wide sales this year are so far up 22% over the first eight months of 2003, and I expect the year to get even better with two new Dungeoneer sets about to arrive (I was expecting them today, but find myself frustrated that they did not show up!), Keith Baker's transparent card game Gloom in October, and Ars Magica 5 in November.

We plan one more d20 project in 2005 -- Northern Crown, formerly known to the web as "Septentrionalis." We're just too in love with this cool setting not to do it, and we're hoping it will, like Nyambe, be a solid and long-lived product in its unique niche. Beyond that, nothing is currently in the works, but we're flexible enough to respond to opportunities, should they arise.

And we still are fans of D&D and d20. Heck, Michelle is playing in two d20 games right now -- a weekly Forgotten Realms campaign, and a monthly Weird-Wars-with-d20-Modern campaign. If we wanted to do a new RPG, we'd certainly consider d20/OGL a viable option for the base system.

Random Side Note, since someone brought it up: We distributed the Pandemonium! RPG for MIB Productions (a company created by Steve Sechi and Joel Kaye) back in 1993, but we were not its publisher. We did not own the game and did not determine its content or presentation.

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games
 

mearls said:
The diminishing number of d20 publishers will have no effect on sales for existing companies. Gaming products aren't a necessity - it isn't like people have a minimum amount of money they must spend on gaming products each month.

While I agree with you in principle Mike, I must admit as a consumer that I like the idea that there will be less to choose from. I had too much to choose from before, so I tended to not look at anything. It may be that with less choices, but still an abundance*, that I'll consider whether I want Book A over plastic miniature Pack B. Since I have a gaming budget that limits my spending, in effect I do have a minimum amount of money. But, I'm a corner case example. Others segments of the market will neutralize any shift in my buying behavior.

*This is looking at this cold and hard and without regard to individually excellent products. I like Backdrops, Seven Cities, Seven Citadels and a lot of other Atlas products. I wish that quality sold more so they could have stayed in, but then again Once Upon a Time: Dark Stories sounds really cool. So Atlas may still get my money - for a different line of business.
 

Pramas said:
Well, a quick glance around confirms that this isn't true, as much as we'd like it to be. There are companies that produced quality material and got nowhere and companies that produced endless drek that are still publishing.
We agree. I was basically saying "if you believe good quality publishers are the only ones who survive, you're wrong."

As evidenced by the fact that I'm still really upset about the loss of MonkeyGod Enterprises' RPG publications.
 

It's the economy

my 2cp worth.

I think more than anything it needs the economy and employment situation in the US to improve for sales to pick up. I suspect in a lot of collectors markets that sales are weaker and things like prices paid for stuff on ebay, etc are down because of things like uncertainty over work, reduced hours, increased gas prices, etc so people have less discretionary income to spend.

The other factors are that it seems like virtually everything has been done for D20 D&D at least once and how many splatbooks or settings do people want or need?

It seems like some of the good publishers will survive, but its ones with a fairly clear view of how they approach the market and who their supporters are, e.g. Necomancer and Goodman Games (1e style modules and settings), Malhavoc and Green Ronin. Mongoose seem to be using licenced properties to build a non D&D gaming base and are now moving into miniatures based wargames which has been a more profitable area than pen and paper based gaming for a long time (not that means all companies are successful, just it seems like there is a higher spend per head).

I'm not surprised that more innovative and risky products mainly come as pdfs at the moment as the cost of publishing by pdf can be much lower than with a printed product as there are reduced upfront costs to deal with, especially if there is a minimal amount of art used (costs eliminated are printing, warehousing, distribution).
 

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