d20 Hatred near you?

[jessemock]

If the complaint is that the d20 system is bad for being popular...

I think that's exactly what the complaint is--not in the sense that "many people like it and that's why it's bad, but that "too many games use it and this is bad".

And it is useful, I think, for people to speak with their voices as well as their dollars on this issue, because the former will help to indicate to RPG producers what sort of game system may be more appropriate.

The point about whether this will prove an economically sound approach has relevance here: it may not be sound precisely because people are not saying enough about why other systems may be needed.

Customers' persepctives--and buying habits--can be changed by the introduction of new ideas and critique is a way of presenting a new idea.

 

[Evil Eli]

I did not start hating D20 or the New D&D, in fact when WOTC got the rights to it I had high hopes that they could save the game. I bought all the hardbacks and played the new D&D for over a year.

I played 3.0 D&D and while fun at first I never really enjoyed it especially at higher levels. I found that it was far too to easy to min/max with character creation. But my beginning dislike for D20 when I DMed it for a couple of months. There where six PC's, 5 NPC's, with an average level of 7th to 9th. After the first combat session in which the party slaughtered the main "recurring" Villian and all of his bodyguards in 5 rounds of combat that lasted 2 and 1/2 hours. I struggled to find stuff for ther party to as they basically super hero's.

I really perfered BD&D like the red and blue box or the RC. Hardcore D20 fanboys use to give me a lot of "crap" because of this. When I would talk with these people I would literal be verbal attacked for liking a what they callled a "Out-dated inferior game that any one with a lick of sense would not bother play. They would then go and a exhort the vitures of the OGL and how all of these third party companies where putting out "great product", Then I would listen to their triades about how much more superior D20 D&D was over all the other systems. That is when my real Hat for 3.x D&D began, the release of 3.5 pretty much killed any chance of me ever playing D20 D&D again.

On side note I found it interesting that at my FLGS the owner had to mark down over 200 D20 compaitble supplements and books because they just weren't selling. He claims that the market is saturated and people just are not buying like they use to.

 

[buzz]

The point about whether this will prove an economically sound approach has relevance here: it may not be sound precisely because people are not saying enough about why other systems may be needed.

Other systems aren't needed. d20 isn't needed. RPGs are a luxury item.

d20 is quite desired, though, as are many other systems. Good thing 3e's getting me back ino the hobby has me buying both.

 

[buzz]

Then I would listen to their triades about how much more superior D20 D&D was over all the other systems. That is when my real Hat for 3.x D&D began, the release of 3.5 pretty much killed any chance of me ever playing D20 D&D again.

Fanboys: their own worst enemy. :\

Apologies on behalf of us d20 fanboys, Eli.

 

[buzz]

Well, according to his home page, it's Snider. Apparently, Twisted Sister is on tour in Madrid right now. Go figure.

Google can obviously not be trusted.

Folks are entitled to think that d20 system is stifiling innovation and competition, but as far as I can tell, the RPG industry was in a downward spiral before d20 arrived. As I recall, pre-3e the discussion was how CCGs had destroyed the RPG market. Quite a difference a few years make.

Big time.

 

[SSquirrel]

I think the most amazing thing that I learned from this thread is that the ISCA BBS is still around. WOW! I used to haunt that place in college (92-95). Amazing.

I'm Slappy Squirrel on there and have been since early 95. Scarily enough I'm also the President of the student group that runs the BBS heh.

Hagen

 

[woodelf]

actually I beleive you could create a OGL system that could do that not a d20 system, since it would contain rules for character creation. And in the case of M&M its OGL is a stretch, its so far removed from d20 its basically an entirely different game with a d20 facade to get more sales.

What you are calling an "OGL system" *is* D20 System--"OGL system" is near-meaningless, as it could mean anything, mechanically. Sure, you couldn't put the D20 System logo on the book, but that doesn't make it "not 'D20 System'"--it could be more like D&D3.5E than lots of games that do have the logo, so why's it "a different system"?

As for M&MM: matter of opinion, not fact. From my POV, M&MM is very cleverly done so as to be near-identical to core D20 System, while still changing the feel immensely. Sure, M&MM as more unlike D&D3E than, say, Arcana Unearthed is. But it's more like D&D3E than it is like, say, Heroes Unlimited or Marvel Universe. And it's not even as much unlike D&D3E as Palladium Fantasy is. Or, IMHO, Ken Hood's stuff.

 

[woodelf]

Now, the person who posted this is correct. Most people who refuse to try d20 from the old AD&D system believe it to be dumbed down. Okay.
Average grade level of 3.5 stuff I have entered into the computer for analysis (I was seriously bored, and tired of a particular authority figure in my life putting down my hobby as "pointless") is on the order of 12th grade. Your average news posting is supposed to be at the 6th to 8th grade level for the sake of more people understanding it.
This was 3E and 3.5E material I checked.

Well, without an analysis of AD&D1 writing, it doesn't tell us anything. We need two data points before we can compare them. Also, i'm rather suspect of the figure you came up with--while the D&D3.5E books aren't exactly light reading, they hardly strike me as 12th grade reading matter, either. But maybe my perspective is skewed (or maybe they've renormalized the reading-level standards, along with the SATs and other such things).

 

[woodelf]

The problem is not WotC, it is small companies making bad D20 games.

Funny, I'd've said that the problem isn't small companies, it's WotC. I consider the WotC books i've read (all the hardcovers 'cept Book of Exalted Deeds, plus the 3E run of splatbooks) to be firmly mediocre, not excellent, or awesome, or even great. You have to look to other publishers to get really awesome stuff, and the only one i'm aware of that has consistently awesome stuff is Atlas (though there are several companies that don't seem to have ever scored less than a "great").

 

[woodelf]

Your post was in a d20 context, so I had thought you were saying something about d20 products specifically. If you're saying that d20 prevents people from homebrewing games out of products from different systems, then I'll tell you that you're just as utterly wrong, as I've been in multiple groups that have done just that.

I'm not claiming it actively *does* anything. I'm saying it *facilitates*, encourages, or otherwise makes some behaviors easier. I'm claiming not that people don't use RPG books from different systems together because of D20 System, but that they change the mentality of those who do, and might do, that. First of all, do you call it "homebrewing a game" when you use, say, D&D3E PH, Monsternomicon, & If Thoughts Could Kill to run a game? If not, then why do you call it "homebrewing a game" when you use D&D3E PH, Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade Bygone Bestiary, & GURPS Psionics? 1 Right there, that distinction, is exactly what i'm talking about: the artificial construction of a boundary, saying that two RPG products are "inherently" compatible, just because tehy use the same game system, and two others have to be "kitbashed" or "tweaked" or "fudged" or "homebrewed" to work together, just because they use different game systems. Now, this attitude has always been there to some degree. D20 System didn't create it. It merely caters to it, and possibly reinforces it.

Now, it's not just about some semantic point on how people describe their games. It's also about the mindset of what people buy, read, and play. Part of why people don't buy products of a different system is this belief that they won't be "useful" to them. And part of why producers often make something D20 System is this consumer behavior. And thus, in the long run, it becomes a force against innovation. Which is bad for all RPGs, D20 System included. Nobody complains that a novel is "incompatible" with their RPG system of choice. So, if you can take an idea from a novel, without any game stats whatsoever and incorporate it into your RPG session, then clearly it can be no harder than this, and probably considerably easier, to incorporate the content of any RPG supplement into your game. And there is no "incompatible", only "different".

OK, i'm sorry, but this post is gonna kinda trail off here, because i've got too little sleep, need to get up at 3am for work tomorrow, and still haven't finished the pregens for the convention games i'm running tomorrow. I know i had a really excellent point that i was building to with that last paragraph, but my sleep-deprived brain lost it, and i'm not sure i managed to make it. So you'll either have to write it off as delusions of grandeur, or accept my claim--either way, hopefully i'll figure out what i was saying tomorrow or Sunday, and continue the point.

1 And even if you, personally, don't make that distinction, plenty of people do. Look at the various threads on this messageboard alone that see a game using Arcana Unearthed as the core book as a "different game" than one using the d&D3E PH as the core book. Or the thread about what books people actually use in their games. Not to mention various threads about combining various products, here, on RPGNow, and elsewhere.