d20 Hatred near you?

[woodelf]

Unreasonable? Yes. Useful? I'm not so sure. Because ultimately, publishers don't care what you say, only what you actually do.

But they also care *why* you do. IOW, if all you do is not buy their game, they don't know why--they don't even know that it's because you didn't like the game: you might simply have not had enough money, or even just not heard of it. Likewise, if you buy the game, they only know that it passed some minimum threshhold for value, not what about it you liked (or disliked). Voting with your dollars is only semi-useful, because it sends such a vague message. Talking [writing, emailing, phoning, whatever] can really focus that message.

If the complaint is that the d20 system is bad for being popular, well then I'm not sure what more I can say. I don't see it as stifling competition...quite the opposite, in fact. I plan on getting Mutants and Masterminds this weekend, and I've bought quite a lot of material in the past three years that I never would have bought without the OGL. That's not material I would have spent on a different game...that's money I wouldn't have spent on RPGs AT ALL without the OGL being in place.

Correct me if i'm presuming too much, but that indicates that D20 System stuff fits what you want in an RPG, and other RPGs didn't. At least, i'm guessing you're not buying stuff you don't like/want, or passing on stuff you do (funds permitting). For me, in contrast, my total expenditure on RPGs fluctuates with my income, but not so much with what's out there--there's *always* way more RPG stuff that i want than i could ever afford (at least for the forseeable future). Now, for a short perioud there (2001-2) i could almost keep up. Almost. And part of the reason is that i rarely like D20 System stuff (just as i rarely like Palladium games, WoD books, or crunchy systems like GURPS), so if a larger %age of RPG books are D20 System, and the total # of new products stays roughly the same, there'll likely be less i'm interested in. Now, to be clear, i don't pass on something just because it's D20 System--i give anything that seems like it might interest me (usually based on genre/setting/mood/topic) a fair shake. And i'll buy it, and use it, even if it's for a system i don't like (thus my GURPS and D20 System books).

The d20 system did no less than bring my RPG hobby back from the dead, and brought 10 other people in my immediate acquaintence with me. We weren't playing Vampire, we weren't playing D&D, and the little GURPS we were playing was once a month of so, at best.

Now this i find interesting. At the risk of threadjacking, allow me to inquire: what about D20 System brought you back to gaming? What did it give you that you couldn't get before? And, going back to your previous bit, are you saying that there are non-D20 System books you've bought that you likely wouldn't have bought had there been no D20 System? Why? I don't understand the causality here.

Folks are entitled to think that d20 system is stifiling innovation and competition, but as far as I can tell, the RPG industry was in a downward spiral before d20 arrived. As I recall, pre-3e the discussion was how CCGs had destroyed the RPG market. Quite a difference a few years make.

Yeah, now the market has some serious instabilities that were either aggravated by the D20 glut, or simply papered over for a while. In the last 3 years, the shelf life for an average RPG product has been cut in half, if not quarter. Evergreen products are almost unheard of now. Distributors are more reluctant than ever to provide backstock. A fair number of distributors wouldn't even look at a product from a new company if it wasn't D20 System. I'm not saying these are because of D20 System. But neither have D20 System products helped the matter. And the sheer glut of D20 products, some of which (like any group) were horrible, has caused distributors to get even more wary of new product, further limiting the market for new publishers. Now, this is firmly the fault of th distributors, who should've been discriminating when buying D20 System stuff, same as anything else. But it wouldn't have happened if not for the seemingly-limitly potential of D20 System (from a sales standpoint)--buttressed by some pretty poor products doing pretty well in sales.

For those publishing non-D20 System products, the market is *much* worse than it was before 2000. For those publishing D20 System products, there was a huge bubble, but it's already beginning to subside. And the only trick that anyone's found for fighting it is ramping up production schedules--such as releasing D&D3.5E 1.5-2yrs ahead of the original schedule.

 

[barsoomcore]

The d20 boom has revitalized the hobby as a whole, and there are plenty of other systems seeing boosted sales becuase of this (HERO), or are suppotred by the income generated from their creator's d20 lines (Atlas Games, White Wolf).

The aforementioned HERO system has seen a massive resurgence, now selling roughly as much as GURPS books tend to.

For those publishing non-D20 System products, the market is *much* worse than it was before 2000. For those publishing D20 System products, there was a huge bubble, but it's already beginning to subside. And the only trick that anyone's found for fighting it is ramping up production schedules--such as releasing D&D3.5E 1.5-2yrs ahead of the original schedule.

Okay, somebody is straight-up WRONG here. Does anyone have any data besides my cursory look at RPGNow? I know woodelf bets that my FLGS would say certain things, but data? Anyone?

 

[barsoomcore]

Nobody complains that a novel is "incompatible" with their RPG system of choice. So, if you can take an idea from a novel, without any game stats whatsoever and incorporate it into your RPG session, then clearly it can be no harder than this, and probably considerably easier, to incorporate the content of any RPG supplement into your game.

Right, but when I buy a novel, I'm investing purely in "ideas". One hundred percent of the word count is ideas. When I buy an RPG supplement, I'm investing a considerable amount in the game stats in that supplement. That is, some percentage of the word count is going to be statistics which, if they're meant for some system I'm not going to use, are useless to me as anything other than a gauge of relative ability. Which I probably got from the novel anyway. Unless, of course, I'm running a d20-based game and purchasing a d20-based supplement, in which case regardless of the actual system most of the game stats will be useful for me.

A supplement designed for a system that is TOO different will be of lesser value, all other things being equal, than either a supplement designed for a similar system, or some product entirely devoid of game stats.

 

[barsoomcore]

the RPG industry was in a downward spiral before d20 arrived.

Yeah, now the market has some serious instabilities that were either aggravated by the D20 glut, or simply papered over for a while.

Well, surely an instable market is preferably to a stably-declining market? I mean, if last year you were starving to death and this year your diet changes every day, you're still better off, right? Or at least if you're going to complain about that, don't expect much sympathy.

In the last 3 years, the shelf life for an average RPG product has been cut in half, if not quarter. Evergreen products are almost unheard of now. Distributors are more reluctant than ever to provide backstock.

Boo frickin hoo. So things are tougher. The market's gotten more competitive. This is a GOOD thing. Why should RPG publishers be getting a free ride? It's a tough industry and only smart companies that build a reputation for good products, manage their businesses intelligently, market their products agressively and learn to finangle the distribution end of things are going to survive. Good. I'm glad of that.

And yeah, WotC has a huge advantage because of its deep pockets and its ownership of the only trademark in the industry that matters. I repeat, boo frickin hoo. At least they made it clear and easy (and free) for anyone else to go into business trying to ride the wave of their success. Of course they did it because they thought it would make it easier for them to make money. Good for them.

And the only trick that anyone's found for fighting it is ramping up production schedules--such as releasing D&D3.5E 1.5-2yrs ahead of the original schedule.

Your data for this is? Let's consider Privateer Press -- surely you're not going to suggest that they are ramping up their production schedules; how far behind is the IK Campaign Guide now? Two years? So that's two data points (assuming yours IS a data point; do you have a source for that information?) which directly contradict one another.

I suggest the trick for succeeding in a competitive market is the same in RPGs as it is in any industry: Make good stuff cheap and get it loudly to purchasers quick. You can vary the goodness, the cheapness, the loudness and the quickness, but that's the trick. It's hard. Most will fail. This is true in all industries -- most startups fail.

What we're seeing in RPGs IS as a result of d20, sure, but it's by no means evidence that d20 is bad for the industry. It's a normal "bubble" reaction to sudden market expansion. It's now settling out and post-bubble times are always hard for people who were making money without actually being very good. Or people who didn't structure their business with an eye for the rainy day. d20 brought a big influx of cash into the RPG market and for a while just about anyone could grab a piece of it. Not so easy now. And of course, D&D being the center of the industry, anything that effects it effects everything else to some degree. Oh well. You don't want to deal with Dungeons and Dragons, don't publish RPGs.

The economic argument against d20 is bogus.

The innovation argument is different. I don't think it holds up but I haven't been able to put much thought into it. Perhaps I will later.

And I was way wrong on the combat actions thing. Never mind. Too much coffee.

 

[Garlak]

Funny, I'd've said that the problem isn't small companies, it's WotC. I consider the WotC books i've read (all the hardcovers 'cept Book of Exalted Deeds, plus the 3E run of splatbooks) to be firmly mediocre, not excellent, or awesome, or even great. You have to look to other publishers to get really awesome stuff, and the only one i'm aware of that has consistently awesome stuff is Atlas (though there are several companies that don't seem to have ever scored less than a "great").

What I meant is that D&D uses a system designed for it.
Other companies build games using this sytem without modifying it.
Some are not high powered and work badly with the basic D20 system.

I do not like WotC products myself, I grew tired of pony trick PrCs (very specialised classes) about five minutes after I saw the trend emerge.
I prefer quality over quantity.

 

[buzz]

Okay, somebody is straight-up WRONG here. Does anyone have any data besides my cursory look at RPGNow? I know woodelf bets that my FLGS would say certain things, but data? Anyone?

I'm not a retailer, so my info is obviously suspect.

Here's what Ken Hite has to say

I think that you have to distinguish the bursting of the d20 bubble, as well as the general economic slump (felt by all businesses) of the past year, from the industry as a whole. The hobby, AFAIK, got a real shot in the arm from d20. The mere existence of the d20 "boom" shows that, well, there was a "boom". Even given the bursted bubble, we still now have a bunch of cool companies that didn't exist prior, such as Mongoose, who've grabbed a huge share of the market for such a small company, and Green Ronin, Monte's Malhavoc, etc.

All I have besides this is anecdotal evidence of myself and my friends. A good chunk of them were drawn back to the hobby becuase of d20, and now spend a good chunk of change on gaming products (of various systems) every month.

 

[Maggan]

Bad time for non-d20?

For those publishing non-D20 System products, the market is *much* worse than it was before 2000.

Is it? I remember times when the situation was worse than this. Like 1996, when rpg's just ablut disappeared as a hobby*. Now there's Internet, and small game companies can have a good and thorough prescence on par with the largest publishers. And if they can handle it, they can sell directly to the customer.

Sure, their product don't sit on the shelves, but haven't that almost always been the case? D&D's been dominating the market as long as I can remember (back to 1982).

And when I look at what's coming out, I see a lot of creativity and offerings from non-d20 companies (as well as new editions). Just look at what is talked about on the net (some might be d20/OGL, please correct me if that is the case):

1492: Conquista del Mágico (FFE)
A Game of Thrones (GOO)
Amber Diceless Roleplaying (GOO)
A/State (Contested Ground)
Aces&Eights (KenzerCo)
Army of Darkness (Eden)
Ars Magica 5.0 (Atlas)
BESM 3.0 (GOO)
Beyond Human (Eden)
Beyond the Supernatural™ 2.0 (Palladium)
Call of Cthulhu 6.0 (Chaosium)
Capcom World Tournament (Living Room)
Chill 3 (Otherworld)
Conspiracy X 2.0 (Eden)
Creation A.D. (Key 20)
Cthulhu Dark Ages (Chaosium)
Cthulhutech (EOS)
Cyberpunk v3 (Talsorian)
d6 2.0 (WEG)
Dead Inside (Atomic Sock Monkey Press)
Deadlands Reloaded
Dead of Night: the Little Book of Horrors (Steampower)
Deryni Adventure Game (Grey Ghost)
Dominion: Modern Feudal Roleplaying (Wildside Press)
Dragon Fist (GRR)
Eldritch Ass Kicking (Key 20)
eNigma (Intiative)
Eon 3.0 (NeoGames)
Fudge New Edition (Grey Ghost)
Girl Genius (SJG)
Ghosts of Albion (Eden)
Gunslingers: Wild West Action! (Gold Rush)
GURPS 4.0 (SJG)
JAGS 2.0 (JAGS)
Justifiers OMEGA (Key 20)
Lejendary Adventures (Troll Lord)
Mythic Russia (Firebird)
Modern Myths (Key 20)
Nebuleon (HinterWelt)
Paranoia XP (Mongoose)
Phobia (NeoGames)
Splicers RPG (Palladium)
Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne RPG (GOO)
TORG 2.0 (WEG)
Tribe 8 2.0 (DP9)
Weapons of the Gods (EOS)
Wild Talents (Arc Dream)
World of Darkness 2.0 (WW)
Wraeththu (Immanion Press)
Wyrd is Bond (Key 20)

50 new/revised non d20 games in the pipeline (of course a few, I think 3 or 4, are not english). To me that is an indication that the non-d20 side of things is still out there doing stuff, and that they are trusting the market to buy their games. Why else put anything out?

Of course, Cyberpunk might be a pipe dream, and I've been waiting for Chill a long time now. So we won't see all these games, but as the year goes on others will taker their place.

Cheers!

Maggan

*Anecdotal observation, of course.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

A lot of interesting (& long) replies in this thread. As for MHO on this matter, I view it from another, broader perspective that applies to multiple aspects of life.

I think that d20 hatred is just another form of elitism; the dislike for it is due to the "fact" (note the quote marks) that it's an inferior system, it's destroying the market, etc.--essentially, it = some bad thing.

I don't see it as anything different than certain RPG players dislike of CCGs, or to a greater extent, people from one part of a country badmouthing another part of the same country (for example, the often-targeted New Jersey or southern US). Just another meaningless case of "us & them" that gives grief to some.

 

[Von Ether]

In my neck of the woods, "d20" is the stamp of local approval for a game. You could have a d20 "Monkey flinging poo" game and you have a waiting list of players lining up.

IMO, it's a combination of too many players who are too lazy to GM and too tight fisted to buy into a new game system that would "invalidate" the purchases they made three years ago, and in some cases eight years ago. (Last year, I was almost sucked into a Forgotten Realms game where each player owned more OOP FR product than the GM had in current FR stuff.)

You also have to love that name recongition and how far it can go with "D&D." While I see d20 as something seperate, most players don't and they will line up to play your "D&D" game, no matter if it's sci-fi or even superheroes.

I think this is in part that a lot of old AD&Ders were kitbashing the system for "sci-fi" and such for years already. I use to have a DM who'd come up with a new "alchemy" -type magic system for every new campiagn he ran. (I wouldn't be surprised if he's die happy with the PsiHB in his hands these days.)

The other part is the safety net of "not learning a new rules system" even though most players will be happy to learn new whole new books of rules as long as they hope they can get an edge out of it for their current character (Prestige Classes where genius I tell you!)

How far can that brand recognition go? Ask Mongoose. They are busy trying to brand "OGL" as if they owned it.

 

[Von Ether]

Your data for this is? Let's consider Privateer Press -- surely you're not going to suggest that they are ramping up their production schedules; how far behind is the IK Campaign Guide now? Two years?

Oddly enough, PP's crappy IK RPG schedule is a symptom of their unexpected success ... in wargames. They put out a fun wargame "Warmachine" based on their IK world and had the wisdom to not make the game "d20" compatable, but wholely different mechanics that were more appropriate to the wargame genre.
www.ikwarmachine.com

If you want to know where your RPG went (and I share your pain) just look at how much lead has been flying out their doors in the last year and you will know. (happy, happy, joy, joy! My Doomreavers are here!!!)