woodelf said:
Found it: http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html . I'll keep looking to see if i can find where someone (Ryan Dancey, i believe) talks about how early sales of D&D3E were much higher than projected.
d20 Hatred near you?
- Thread starter SSquirrel
- Start date
Found it: http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html . I'll keep looking to see if i can find where someone (Ryan Dancey, i believe) talks about how early sales of D&D3E were much higher than projected.
Uhm no, I'm perfectly aware of the frenzy that Star Wars caused back in the day. I'm aware of people camping out for the new movies as well. people camping out are still viewed as extreme, but being a big Star Wars geek or a Harry Potter afficianado won't get you booed out of the room. People don't ask Star Wars and Lord of the Rings fans if they're Satan worshipers simply b/c they thought a book or movie was cool. People used to (still do in some cases) ask that about poeple who play RPGs, especially D&D.diaglo said:
This is also a culture where people have been gradually realizing that the geeks are the ones in charge. See Bill Gates. Tell me that man has _1_ cool bone in his body. But look at what he has together in Microsoft. There has probably NEVER been a better climate for it to be seen as ok to play roleplaying games.
Hagen
Well, they could acknowledge that the rest of the industry exists. Was it under WotC's or TSR's helm that Dragon dropped all non-WotC/TSR content, including Roleplaying Reviews? If it hadn't been for Roleplaying Reviews in Dragon, i might never have gotten into games other than D&D (way back when), and i *might* have been one of those who burned out on AD&D2 and just quit gaming. [Not likely, given how much i love RPGs--but i might realistically have ceased being a consumer, just playing my homebrews.] D&D is going to be "the" intro RPG, with more people starting with it than probably all others combined. That means that anyone who hears about RPGs and decides to give them a try will probably first try D&D. I think we all agree that different people like different styles of RPGs, which means at least some of those people who first try D&D probably won't like it, but for reasons that are not inherent to RPGs. The easier it is for them to discover that those reasons aren't inherent, and that there are other RPGs that they would like, the more likely it is that they'll stick with gaming. And i don't just think this is a case of WotC being altruistic. I mean, first of all, these are customers they're gonna lose no matter what, so why *not* give them to other RPG companies rather than lose them completely? But, more importantly (from WotC's POV), i sincerely believe that a diverse, healthy RPG market is better than a non-diverse healthy market. That it is *not* a zero-sum game (except *maybe* within D20 System products), and that growing any part of the market is good for themarket as a whole, se that even having a more vibrant GURPS market actually helps the producers of D&D (by making distributors and retailers healthier, etc.). [If rumors are correct, even MS recognized that it was in their own best interests to keep Apple alive as a viable competitor.]barsoomcore said:
Well, specifically i worry that D&D3E may be faddish, not D&D as a whole--i think it's already shown too much staying power to fit that label. But i'm sure that's what you meant.
As for advertising compatibility: there's no evidence i'm aware of that, prior to WotC's OGL there was anything preventing the creation and advertising of increased compatibility. OK, how much of a game copyright protects was a bit ambiguous. But just look around (and at videogame court cases) for ample evidence that advertising compatibility, including using others' trademarks, is perfectly legal, so long as (1) you properly declaim the marks, (2) you're honest, and (3) you don't mislead the customer.
Sorry, got a bit snippy there. I wasn't really taking it personally, so much as getting a bit frustrated. I'm better now.
Actually, i'm looking at the market, not my own opinions: reviews here and at RPGNet and other places, discussions, and anything else that talks about "good" and "bad" D20 System products. I *know* better than to even consider my opinion of them if i'm trying to look at market behavior, since i've long since learned that my personal opinion of D20 System products is almost exactly opposite of the market's, because what i want in an RPG product (fluff) is almost exactly opposite what sells in a D&D3E product (crunch). To take a quick example: Mongoose is obviously selling like hotcakes--it bumped established companies out of the top 5 in Ken Hite's data. Mongoose also frequently shows up in lists of "i can't believe this company still exists with all the crappy product they put out" in discussions online. Similarly, i regularly see thier "Quintessential ..." books listed as horrible. Likewise, they don't generally get very good reviews. Yet they *must* be selling reasonably well, because they keep making them.
But, you're right, i hyperbolated. I don't think that any RPG producer is saying "shovel the crap--they'll buy it anyway". At worst, i think they're simply not using terribly rigorous standards of quality control because they probably can't see an obvious correlation between sales and their internal opinion of the quality of the product (any producer should know what they think of their products, and know that not all are equally good, despite their best efforts). For that matter, the producers probably also can't see an obvious correlation between reviews (even if you "average" a bunch of them) and sales data. At least, assuming RPGs are like all other forms of art and entertainment, where there is no clear-cut superior product or objective standard, so reviews and sales often won't line up.
Oh, as for minimal difference between crappy and awesome products, that comes from extrapolation on my part. I hear that a typical printrun in the small-press [RPG] world is 3000-4000 units. At least one company i talked to [withholding the name at the moment, because i'm not sure they wanted the data to be public] routinely sells 1000-2000 units on preorder alone, with their worst-selling product of all time selling 750 units on preorder. So, let's take a middling estimate of 1500 units sold on preorder on a printrun of 4000 with a shelf life of 3mo. At the absolute most extreme, the awesome seller can only sell about 2.5x as much as the poor seller, because they both start out with 1500 units sold from day one. And it doesn't require consumers to be dummies who don't know what they want for this to happen--the more frontlist-oriented the industry gets, the easier it is for this to happen, because more and more it becomes buying a product when it first comes out and putting it on the shelves until it sells, and that's it--no reorder, whether it sells quickly or slowly. Obviously, we haven't reached that point yet, and something that sells quickly enough gets reordered. But that's the direction things are moving, IMHO.
woodelf said:
Conversely, people who play many other RPGs could get burnt out on the multiplicity of rules sets they have to learn, and quit gaming as a result.
Consider this: If Dragon printed one article per issue on a different RPG. Who would it appeal to?
* Regular D&D-only players? No. The value of the magazine has decreased
* Regular players of that RPG? Not very much - they'd have to wade through masses of D&D material to get to ONE article that was of interest to them - and likely ONE article per YEAR (if that).
The people it appeals to are a fraction of the regular readership of Dragon - and it is most likely that the fraction in question is well under a half.
Very well, what about reviews of other RPGs? They can be interesting to everyone, right?
However, consider this: Amber is reviewed by Dragon. I go off and get Amber, and am so happy with it I play nothing but Amber for the next three years... and don't buy any D&D products (including Dragon magazine).
That was a good result for Dragon, wasn't it?
Dragon has far more competition now than it ever has in the past: the Internet is its competitor, as are all of the d20 System products being made. Indeed, even Wizards of the Coast compete with it - back in the days of Gygax's TSR, a new rulebook was a strange and wondrous thing. Now they come out every month - the position of Dragon as the only place for new variants and expansion of D&D has long disappeared.
Cheers!
BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
Worst D20 Port Ever....
IMO, the worst d20 system port ever was 7th Sea. The original roll and keep system was integral to the game, yet I think it might have been POSSIBLE to do a good d20 system version.
The mockery that AEG created is shameful to say the least. Some major beefs:
1. To know a sword school you need a prestige class! WHy not just make the various sword school knacks be feats with prerequisites? In 7th Sea, it is common for a warrior to begin with a swordschool, not try to eventually get one some day way off in the distance!
2. The D20 system version is not cinematic in any way, while the original was a very cinematic system. If the enemies you were fighting were unnamed brutes, you automatically killed them in one hit, and could possibly take down 4 in a single action ala Indigo Montoyo from the princess bride. Now, it is the typical "you can only make 1 attack/6 points of BAB". So killing 4 brutes takes 4 rounds for a 5th level warrior! ARG!
3. In order to contend with the rules differences, they had to change the game world itself. Because magic no longer worked the same, it destroyed the sense of uniqueness to various nationalities, etc. Likewise, Dracheneisen now only grants a paltry armor bonus that makes you harder to hit, wheras in 7th Sea, it ate damage (and weapons made of it did more damage).
7th Sea is just one example of a terrific game that went to hell because of D20.
IMO, the worst d20 system port ever was 7th Sea. The original roll and keep system was integral to the game, yet I think it might have been POSSIBLE to do a good d20 system version.
The mockery that AEG created is shameful to say the least. Some major beefs:
1. To know a sword school you need a prestige class! WHy not just make the various sword school knacks be feats with prerequisites? In 7th Sea, it is common for a warrior to begin with a swordschool, not try to eventually get one some day way off in the distance!
2. The D20 system version is not cinematic in any way, while the original was a very cinematic system. If the enemies you were fighting were unnamed brutes, you automatically killed them in one hit, and could possibly take down 4 in a single action ala Indigo Montoyo from the princess bride. Now, it is the typical "you can only make 1 attack/6 points of BAB". So killing 4 brutes takes 4 rounds for a 5th level warrior! ARG!
3. In order to contend with the rules differences, they had to change the game world itself. Because magic no longer worked the same, it destroyed the sense of uniqueness to various nationalities, etc. Likewise, Dracheneisen now only grants a paltry armor bonus that makes you harder to hit, wheras in 7th Sea, it ate damage (and weapons made of it did more damage).
7th Sea is just one example of a terrific game that went to hell because of D20.
BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
D20 is the McDonalds of the RPG industry
Although I don't LOVE d20, I also don't find D20 to be the "anti-system" that some do. I admit, I prefer point buy systems, but what if I don't want to take an hour to make a character? D20 lets you begin playing 10 minutes after you decide to get a game going! Also, because Class n' Level systems are very simple it is probably the best system to teach kids or girlfriends, or other clueless newbies how to play. Basically, d20 is the McDonalds of the RPG industry: convenient and accessable. If I had to choose between McDonalds and a Prime Rib, I would pick the prime rib, but if I am in a hurry, if I don't feel like going to the trouble, or if I am in the mood for it, I will go for the McDonalds!
Although I don't LOVE d20, I also don't find D20 to be the "anti-system" that some do. I admit, I prefer point buy systems, but what if I don't want to take an hour to make a character? D20 lets you begin playing 10 minutes after you decide to get a game going! Also, because Class n' Level systems are very simple it is probably the best system to teach kids or girlfriends, or other clueless newbies how to play. Basically, d20 is the McDonalds of the RPG industry: convenient and accessable. If I had to choose between McDonalds and a Prime Rib, I would pick the prime rib, but if I am in a hurry, if I don't feel like going to the trouble, or if I am in the mood for it, I will go for the McDonalds!
If your friends have been gaming awhile, chances are they already know of other game systems and would loan you books etc. While you look around for info on these otehr systems you would naturally discover other game worlds. I don't worry too much about it.woodelf said:
Tell that to Role Aids and some of the other lawsuits from the 80s and 90s over gaming books.woodelf said:
Yeah Mongoose has always struck me as a company to not touch with a 10 foot pole. I occasionally still pick up the products and flip thru them. Still get the same feeling *shrug* Probly didn't help that I didn't really feel the quintessential book series cover was an "homage" to 2E...it felt more like a blatant ripoff. Refer to Mallrats and their quick discussion of why the dating show is bad. (hint, they also complain about not having enough monkey in their lives)woodelf said:
Hagen
You're absolutely right. This being at least partly a matter of taste, are opinions are not necessarily mutually exclusive, even when in opposition. My mistake.barsoomcore said:
You're right--i'm sorry. I didn't mean to presume. Had you not tried any other style of gaming, i'd consider my supposition plausible and reasonable--if perhaps still insulting. But since you've actually tried other styles of gaming and rejected them based on an informed opinion, i retract any insinuation that you've simply been trained by market forces.
That's not what i'm trying to say, so perhaps i'm being unclear. I don't think it's "better" to play with less crunch. I think it's easier. I also don't think it's as much effort as apparently a lot of other people do, to invent my own crunch--but we've already covered that above. Finally, i suspect that a lot of people (possibly including yourself) overestimate the effort required to use "incompatible" statblocks, or just use a much higher standard of fidelity than i do.
SSquirrel said:
Don't forget, MGI won (or settled--i dunno the details) the original lawsuit. The [later] lawsuit the lost was over contract violation, not copyright or trademark infringement.
Which is precisely why i'm referring to general market opinion: i seem to like precisely the products and companies most hate, and vice versa--with exceptions, of course. Personally, Mongoose is one of the few D20 System companies that i even bother to look at the products on a regular basis. I still don't like all of them, but their hit/miss ratio is better than most, and i put their Slayers' Guides among the best D20 System products out there (well, at least the earlier ones, which had almost no crunch--if they've gotten crunchier, i probably won't like them any more). Similarly, B5, OGL Ancients, and several of their other standalone games have some of the best innovations i've seen in D20 System games. And i generally like their alternate-magic books. And while i don't particularly care for them, i'll still take the Quintessential books over the equivalent offerings from WotC. In short, i think Mongoose is one of the best, not one of the worst, D20 System producers.
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Psion
Adventurer
Wow. Could I have a view more diametrically opposed to yours on this if I tried? I found the early ones were filled with descriptions of details that anyone familiar with the concept of the races could have guessed; the later ones actually add some good utility material (I actually USE the yuan ti book in my game, which is a lot more than I can say about the first few slayer's guides!)Guess it goes to show... one man's junk, another man's treasure.
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