d20 Hatred near you?

[woodelf]

Wow. Could I have a view more diametrically opposed to yours on this if I tried? I found the early ones were filled with descriptions of details that anyone familiar with the concept of the races could have guessed; the later ones actually add some good utility material (I actually USE the yuan ti book in my game, which is a lot more than I can say about the first few slayer's guides!)

Guess it goes to show... one man's junk, another man's treasure.

Well, as i implied, i've only really looked at the early ones--the first 10 or so. Of those, i think they're a mixed bag. Like you said, some have a bit too much of the obvious in them. But at least they don't "waste" lots of space on things like stats for bigger versions and the like. Now that you mention it, the yuan ti is one i really want to see, but never have--they've always been one of my favorite monsters. Anyway, i specifically like the early ones because they're fluff-heavy and crunch-lite. I haven't actually read that many of them cover-to-cover, so i'll readily concede that it's useless fluff, rather than useful fluff, at least in some of them. What do you think of ...Gnolls? That's the only one i actually own, and have therefore read carefully (and really like). As much as i like them conceptually, too many of them are for monsters that don't grab me, no matter how well done, and since i'm not running fantasy lately, i've been spending my money on other things.

 

[wingsandsword]

IMO, the worst d20 system port ever was 7th Sea. The original roll and keep system was integral to the game, yet I think it might have been POSSIBLE to do a good d20 system version.

The mockery that AEG created is shameful to say the least. Some major beefs:
1. To know a sword school you need a prestige class! WHy not just make the various sword school knacks be feats with prerequisites? In 7th Sea, it is common for a warrior to begin with a swordschool, not try to eventually get one some day way off in the distance!

2. The D20 system version is not cinematic in any way, while the original was a very cinematic system. If the enemies you were fighting were unnamed brutes, you automatically killed them in one hit, and could possibly take down 4 in a single action ala Indigo Montoyo from the princess bride. Now, it is the typical "you can only make 1 attack/6 points of BAB". So killing 4 brutes takes 4 rounds for a 5th level warrior! ARG!

3. In order to contend with the rules differences, they had to change the game world itself. Because magic no longer worked the same, it destroyed the sense of uniqueness to various nationalities, etc. Likewise, Dracheneisen now only grants a paltry armor bonus that makes you harder to hit, wheras in 7th Sea, it ate damage (and weapons made of it did more damage).

7th Sea is just one example of a terrific game that went to hell because of D20.

That's a sign of a poorly written port, of people who didn't know d20 too well, rather than a fault in the system itself.

Personally, I consider Deadlands d20 as the worst d20 port, but for many of the same reasons you gave for 7th Sea (that and the fact that it's new base classes were very poorly written).

1. Yes, sword schools could have been treated just as feats instead of Prestige Classes. Some people writing for d20 get a little over-zealous with making everything into a PrC, including things that would be better off as new feats, or just descriptive flavor on existing feats. The Martial Arts styles in Unearthed Arcana are an example.

2. Kill 4 average goons in one attack? Great Cleave and Heroic Surge (from d20 Modern or Star Wars), a 4th level fighter can do it. Cinematic roleplaying can easily be done in d20, heck d20 Modern (my personal favorite version of d20) was written with cinematic action-movie style games in mind.

3. There are lots of ways to do magic in d20 other than standard "spell slots". I don't know a lot about 7th Sea, but I can think of several alternate spellcasting/powers mechanics like the Telepathy system from Babylon 5 and Incantations from d20 Modern-Urban Arcana or Unearthed Arcana. There are even ways to do variant level based powers, like Channelling from Wheel of Time and Psionics from D&D. With being a little more creative you could have an alternate magical system for each nationality, some being intricately researched rituals with multiple skill checks, others being skills/feats setups like Telepathy or Force Powers, others being "traditional" spells-per-level, and maybe even one that granted certain spell-like abilities and minor constant powers (like the Dark*Matter magical classes from Polyhedron #204). Drawing a distinction between Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence based spells in "conventional" magic, and spontaneous and prepared casting also gives a lot more options.

A special material that gives armor Damage Reduction (which is what it sounds like you're talking about) shouldn't be a problem, or that gives a bonus to damage or gives bonus damage sounds perfectly reasonable.

I know a lot of people don't like Mongoose, but one thing they said that I really like is a philosophy of "rewrite the rules to fit the setting, not vice-versa" (or something to that effect), it was the philosophy they had in making Babylon 5 (where they re-wrote the hit point rules to be more lethal and realistic, among other changes).

 

[barsoomcore]

woodelf:

We seem to have come to a couple of inalienable differences where we just have to agree to disagree.

As for the value of stat blocks, I agree with you that it's easier to play with reduced stats. I just don't find it as much fun. Of course, that means I spend a few nights a week grumbling to myself about why don't I play Toon, but there you go. The usual tradeoff.

As for the behaviour of the market, I appreciate that you might have acquired information about it that you can't share for whatever reason. If you say, "I happen to know that three publishers are experiencing a downturn but I can't tell you who," that's fair enough. It does sound like the market is experiencing a fad and sure enough that means not so fun much as the excitement wears off.

I believe, though, that even in such a market, quality tells in the long run. People can get lucky a few times, but the way to succeed in any business is to figure out how to make it good enough for cheap enough. "Good" and "cheap" being indefinite terms that won't be the same from one operation to the next.

 

[diaglo]

Uhm no, I'm perfectly aware of the frenzy that Star Wars caused back in the day. I'm aware of people camping out for the new movies as well. people camping out are still viewed as extreme, but being a big Star Wars geek or a Harry Potter afficianado won't get you booed out of the room. People don't ask Star Wars and Lord of the Rings fans if they're Satan worshipers simply b/c they thought a book or movie was cool. People used to (still do in some cases) ask that about poeple who play RPGs, especially D&D.

This is also a culture where people have been gradually realizing that the geeks are the ones in charge. See Bill Gates. Tell me that man has _1_ cool bone in his body. But look at what he has together in Microsoft. There has probably NEVER been a better climate for it to be seen as ok to play roleplaying games.

Um, yes, you are unaware of the context. don't forget we were satan worshipping also for the music we listened to back then. and for hiding out in steam tunnels beneath Mich State Univ. and for sacrificing small animals and children on altars in our basements.

the type of people who played D&D is just that a type. i knew jocks, geeks, hellions, deadheads, preps, etc....who played. the only thing elusive back then was the female gamer. yet, when i went to conventions i met them too. so i know they existed.

if you want to type RPGers go ahead. but the type hasn't changed.

btw, being a Harry Potter aficinado as you put it, still can get you in trouble with some churches. just do a google search.

Bill Gates being a geek and in charge means....what...he has money. money is power. don't you know that old cliche?

 

[WizarDru]

Um, yes, you are unaware of the context. don't forget we were satan worshipping also for the music we listened to back then. and for hiding out in steam tunnels beneath Mich State Univ. and for sacrificing small animals and children on altars in our basements.

the type of people who played D&D is just that a type. i knew jocks, geeks, hellions, deadheads, preps, etc....who played. the only thing elusive back then was the female gamer. yet, when i went to conventions i met them too. so i know they existed.

if you want to type RPGers go ahead. but the type hasn't changed.

I beg to differ. In the 70s, no one even really knew that much about D&D. It was an obscure, virtually unknown hobby in the public consciousness. The core D&D and then AD&D books were oddities, carried in very few places...and this predated the advent of comic shops and big bookstore chains like B&N and Borders.

The myth of the loser geek gamer didn't take hold until the early 80s, with the sudden surge caused from Basic D&D and it's entry into the zeitgeist. This was the same era where video games and computers were starting to take hold in the home...but were considered 'geeky' to some extent. But computer classes were on their way to being mandatory, back then. Today, kids are taught to use computers in pre-K, and are considered as much a part of their lives as TV or the phone.

D&D, like various other hobbies , has joined the mainstream. Skateboarding was a fringe hobby in the late 70s...now it sits in the garage next to the inline skate and the mountain bike. D&D remains an esoteric hobby, to be sure...but it has recognition and general acceptance. The idea that the general demographic of the D&D gamer hasn't changed isn't really held up by the evidence, IMHO. The advent of PC and video RPGs, especially MMORPGs, has given D&D and it's ilk high visibility, as well. No one thinks anything is out of the ordinary about playing Final Fantasy X, or that a TV commercial for Draakengard is out of the ordinary.

And as for Star Wars enthuisiasts, they've migrated to the same place that Trekkies are...viewed as eccentric, but normal. They get the same look as historical war enthusiasts or cowboy recreationists. Slightly off-center from them are the cosplay crowd and the SCA. When people want to cite truly odd behavior, they tend to look to the fuzzy crowd. 'nuf said.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

The myth of the loser geek gamer didn't take hold until the early 80s, with the sudden surge caused from Basic D&D and it's entry into the zeitgeist.
D&D, like various other hobbies , has joined the mainstream. D&D remains an esoteric hobby, to be sure...but it has recognition and general acceptance. The idea that the general demographic of the D&D gamer hasn't changed isn't really held up by the evidence, IMHO.

Could it be because We, the geeky gamers of the 70's and 80's, have grown up and now run the country? It wasn't normal back then because our parents didn't play and didn't understand but now it is the gamers who are having kids and now it is normal because we... the geeks now determine what is mainstream.

 

[diaglo]

And as for Star Wars enthuisiasts, they've migrated to the same place that Trekkies are...viewed as eccentric, but normal. They get the same look as historical war enthusiasts or cowboy recreationists. Slightly off-center from them are the cosplay crowd and the SCA. When people want to cite truly odd behavior, they tend to look to the fuzzy crowd. 'nuf said.

this is the kind of stuff spoken by a true gamer who has never made his own chainmail.

some of us spent weeks/months putting links together for 55lbs of used Long Fence(tm). going out and joining groups like the Markland Mercenary Militia and beating each other up on the weekends.

nor would you appreciate the abuse from the wargamer crowd for selling out to the "kiddie" game of roleplaying.

 

[Psion]

I haven't actually read that many of them cover-to-cover, so i'll readily concede that it's useless fluff, rather than useful fluff, at least in some of them. What do you think of ...Gnolls?

That's almost exactly the one I was thinking of when I said "stuff I could have guessed." Things like "gnolls don't treat their prisoners nice" had me thinking "why did I buy this again?" (And I did buy it... this was before I started getting review products.) Also, looking back at my review, it seems that the stat blocks they had for it were flat out wrong.

 

[WizarDru]

Could it be because We, the geeky gamers of the 70's and 80's, have grown up and now run the country? It wasn't normal back then because our parents didn't play and didn't understand but now it is the gamers who are having kids and now it is normal because we... the geeks now determine what is mainstream.

Nah. For one, you and I aren't running the country. Well, I'm not, anyhow.

Second, I just don't see anybody in the current administration as being a gamer...I mean, I can see Rumsfeld playing Europa or Advanced Squad Leader, but D&D? I'm not seeing it. Now the previous administration...they probably played Everway or something.

I know quite a few other parents, and none of them are gamers in the traditional sense. But D&D just isn't the visually exciting target that Grand Theft Auto is, for one thing. It's also been around for 30 years, now, and hasn't caused the collapse of humanity that was predicted. In the early 80s, they were worried we'd all turn into violent pyschopaths by playing D&D. of course, the violent psychopaths were the ones who weren't playing D&D and had no friends...but that's another story.

No trend has a single parent. Having grown-up players is certainly a factor, but I'd wager it's a very small one.

 

[diaglo]

Now the previous administration...they probably played Everway or something.

Al Gore invented the internet and was a 10th lvl Vice President.