D&D 4E d20 Modern 4E - I want it!

[Ruin Explorer]

I think the best thing WotC could do for d20 Modern 2E (or 4E or whatever), is to forget the original d20 Modern entirely. Honestly, compared to other d20 games of a similar nature (Spycraft, for example), it was absolutely terrible. Simplistic, limited, neither realistic-feeling NOR cinematic-feeling, just really an all-round crummy game. I don't care if it has fans, I strongly suspect it sold less copies (and certainly occupied less shelf-space) than it's various d20 cousins.

Then, having forgotten that, they need to sit their designers down with TVtropes.com (or whatever it's called), have a good look through that, then have them watch several dozen awesome action movies, from the original SW series to Die Hard to Pulp Fiction to Hard Boiled to the latest Bond movies, and then construct their game based on the general awesome-ness and deep trope-understanding that they now possess.

What they really need to dump, though, is EVERYTHING in the original d20 Modern. There is literally nothing in the original rule-book worth salvaging. Every single thing was either just bad, or done better by someone else.

 

[hamishspence]

What about Urban Arcana

That was the campiagn setting designed to showcase D20 modern. Is it salvagable? It used incantations a bit like present day Skill challenges, and it's incantation system reappeared in modified form in Unearthed Arcana.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah, I think the main thing with vehicular combat is

1) Keep it constantly in motion

2) Keep it to scale.

2 works well with minion fighters and solo warships.

1 has trouble getting accomplished with a battlemap-style play without feeling a bit forced and pointless.

The battlemap is an annoying thing with space combat. I'd prefer to "simulate" 3D combat, but a battlemap is ultimately inadequate for this purposes. Constant movement (especially in space, where no friction can slow down your "planes") is another problem.

A good abstraction for position might be required.

I think the best thing WotC could do for d20 Modern 2E (or 4E or whatever), is to forget the original d20 Modern entirely. Honestly, compared to other d20 games of a similar nature (Spycraft, for example), it was absolutely terrible. Simplistic, limited, neither realistic-feeling NOR cinematic-feeling, just really an all-round crummy game. I don't care if it has fans, I strongly suspect it sold less copies (and certainly occupied less shelf-space) than it's various d20 cousins.

Then, having forgotten that, they need to sit their designers down with TVtropes.com (or whatever it's called), have a good look through that, then have them watch several dozen awesome action movies, from the original SW series to Die Hard to Pulp Fiction to Hard Boiled to the latest Bond movies, and then construct their game based on the general awesome-ness and deep trope-understanding that they now possess.

What they really need to dump, though, is EVERYTHING in the original d20 Modern. There is literally nothing in the original rule-book worth salvaging. Every single thing was either just bad, or done better by someone else.

I am pretty fond of the _idea_ of the wealth system. I don't like having to track lots of money and the various ways the modern world allows to gain money. The wealth system was nice, but imperfect.

The classes and their talents where ultimately pretty bland. There wasn't much evocative on them. Still, the game offered some interesting possibilities.

But I like your suggestions. But reading them makes me thing that WotC might just not be the right ones to do a good d20 Modern game. The designers are just to busy with D&D.
If they could spend all the effort that went into D&D 4E again into d20 Modern 2.0, the game could be awesome. But I wonder if it can achieve the same if they just use th D&D stuff and try to adapt it to d20 Modern. How well do the roles translate to modern combat? Shouldn't the non-combat roles be expanded more upon. (That's a topic I guess I'll always bring up when I ressurrect this thread. )

In short - are there enough lessons learned and mechanics established for 4E that can be transferred to D20 Modern 2E?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That was the campiagn setting designed to showcase D20 modern. Is it salvagable? It used incantations a bit like present day Skill challenges, and it's incantation system reappeared in modified form in Unearthed Arcana.

Honestly, while we used the setting, i don't feel like a big fan of it. It's D&D in the modern world, and somehow, I don't like this. Dark Matter felt a lot more interesting, as did Agents of Psi, Shadow Chasers and Genetech.

Still, one problem I see is that d20 Modern doesn't offer a strong default setting. That makes it difficult to create adventure supplements for it, which I feel is just as important as "splats" to support a game.

If WotC doesn't want to support d20 Modern much, they might be best off making it highly generic and then create a license more like the OGL (or exactly the OGL ) and not a restrictive one like the GSL.

The alternative is not to make a d20 Modern, but a Dark Matter 3.0 or Urban Arcana 2.0. Strong IP, and focussed support with adventures and expansions.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Honestly, while we used the setting, i don't feel like a big fan of it. It's D&D in the modern world, and somehow, I don't like this. Dark Matter felt a lot more interesting, as did Agents of Psi, Shadow Chasers and Genetech.

Yeah, I DESPERATELY wanted to like Urban Arcana, but I couldn't manage it, because it was just a little too "D&D in NYC" as it were, and didn't seem to have any actual personality. Unlike Dark*Matter, which, for all it's alleged right-wing subtext, at least had a strong personality and presented an interesting game-world.

The alternative is not to make a d20 Modern, but a Dark Matter 3.0 or Urban Arcana 2.0. Strong IP, and focussed support with adventures and expansions.

That's probably a good idea. Either that or give it a strong implied setting, like they've done for 4E. Though I'm not quite sure how they'd do that. I think watching lots and lots of action movies and TV series and identifying all the "typical" bad guy organisations and so on would be a good start, though. You can have the evil biotech corp, conducting horrific cutting edge experiments and providing super-soldiers, zombies, etc. You can have your bad secret "government" agency that's completely beyond oversight and provides assassins, MIBs, etc. You can have the Cthulhu-esque cultists and their world-wide network, providing insane and occult people and things to shoot. You can have your rogue "military contractor" mercenary provider, who you can involve in sorts of coups inside and outside the country, in providing henchmen for evildoers, and so on.

I mean, I could go on all day. I think though, they COULD do an implied setting which worked and was cool and crazy. Like an version of the world where Die Hard could actually happen, and where maybe there IS an Umbrella Corporation under Raccoon City, and so on. You just need to take the world and twist it.

I think, sadly, that you're right that maybe WotC aren't the people to do this right now. I hope they delay d20 Modern rather than going off half-cocked on it. I was thinking about it last night and the potential is just amazing, done right. I'd also rather they started with a narrow base than a broad one, because then via the GSL people could actually expand usefully. If they try to cover every possible character class in the main book, that'd really limit what other companies could do.

And yeah maybe I was wrong about Wealth, because I liked it, but so many people seemed to hate it, and I've seen similar systems work better (somewhere, wish I could remember where), that I dunno...

 

[Felon]

D20M 4e?

One condition: lose the emphasis on tactical-scale combat, or crank out some minis.

 

[The Little Raven]

One condition: lose the emphasis on tactical-scale combat, or crank out some minis.

Option B, please.

 

[hong]

Why should a d20 Modern game have to have classes at all? The designers have hinted around that making a "classless" version of 4e shouldn't be all that difficult, so why not make Modern that classless version? It seems like the main differentiation among classes is in the selection of powers available to each class, and the other stats are pretty consistent across classes. Each character could have access to one power source by default (depending on concept), and take powers from other power sources by spending a feat. I'd think that other class differences (like HP progression) could also be modified by taking feats.

In a way this is kind of what they already encourage in the current d20 Modern game - you're encouraged to multiclass among the 6 base classes a lot. This just removes the descriptor and gives the player a little more control over the whole build.

Yes. The d20M classes are pointless. If they're going to be that broadly-based, you might as well junk them and let people pick whatever abilities they want.

 

[gribble]

Yes. The d20M classes are pointless. If they're going to be that broadly-based, you might as well junk them and let people pick whatever abilities they want.

I think we'll probably see the various roles instead of classes: Defender, Striker, Controller, Leader. Possibly with a few of the MM roles for good measure: Lurker, Brute

I also think a d20 modern-like abstract wealth system is a good fit for 4e. Think about it - with "treasure packages" in 4e there is a very static and predictable progression of PC buying power. There isn't any reason why it couldn't be converted to a completely static system. Something like:
Start with 100 wealth points. Every level you gain another X wealth points (probably on some sort of exponential scale). Purchasing items costs a certain amount of wealth points from your pool.

There you go - a 4e modern wealth system.

 

[hong]

Also, I don't see how per-day powers can't be used in a 4EM game. Mechanically, it's just a way of limiting abilities that are powerful so that they don't become overly routine and unbalance the game. Narratively, it's a way to encourage these abilities to be used only when facing really tough encounters. Both of these considerations still apply to modern games.

Stripped to bare essentials, a headshot might be just a [7w] attack. Now you probably don't want players pulling off headshots in every fight; if so, you can make this into a per-day power. (If you don't have a problem with headshots in every fight, then ignore this, obviously.)

If per-day is too clunky, then you could go to an action point-fuelled method of rationing. Spend an AP and get your headshot in. But this would entail moving further away from the base 4E setup, for good or ill.