d20 Modern and Spycraft
- Thread starter Crothian
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randallorndorff
First Post
I'm hoping that they are compatible enough that I can use Spycraft's feats with d20 Modern's classes. Hopefully I will be getting d20 Modern late today. If I get a chance to compare, I will post my first impressions later.
digitaldark
First Post
I have both....and do plan on using bits from spycraft for my d20 Modern campaign...They seem very balanced with each other actually...and Technically I don't see why you couldn't add even D&D stuff without too much trouble..
d20 Modern is very versatile...I'll probably be using it for most of my gaming now
d20 Modern is very versatile...I'll probably be using it for most of my gaming now
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Mortaneus
First Post
I just finished reading through the d20 modern SRD, and here's my analysis:
Classes: Use spycraft if you want some seriously bad mofo's. Use d20 modern if you want something a bit lower key.
Feats: Use Spycraft. The d20M feats section is pathetic. Especially when you consider that all the +2 to two skills feats are effectively the same thing. Spycraft has TONS of feats, and is really well done. d20M kind of sucks as far as feats go. Especially this stupid 13 Wis req burst fire garbage.
Skills: Spycraft all the way. With the skill enhancement feats it contains, and the ability to crit on a skill check, it adds a ton more flavor then d20M.
Action Dice vs. Action Points: Depends on how cinematic you want it. Action Points are limited, you only get more each level (meaning people will save them until they have no other choice), only one can be used each round, and you can't get a roll higher than +6 from them. Spycraft's action dice refresh each session, you get more for doing cool stuff, the gm has some (usually more than you, and they're bigger too!), and you can keep spending them as long as you have them.
Equipment: Spycraft's budget point/gadget point system is good for people working for a specific organization that provides their equip. d20M has a much better system for people on their own. Some of the equip values are a bit wonky, though. 17 for a 35mm camera??? And why, oh why, did they make starting wealth have a 6 point (2d4) random variance? What if I want to play a wealthy character, but roll crappy, while someone else in the party doesn't bother, but rolls an 8? How is that even remotely fair?
Combat: Spycraft re-wrote the system almost entirely, and streamlined it in quite a few ways. d20M is D&D with guns. I must say that, if nothing else, one thing I enjoy about the spycraft combat system is that if you get multiple attacks, they're all at the SAME bonus, meaning it's easy to roll a bunch of d20's and not have to keep track of which one is for which attack. Speeds things up = good. Oh, and the d20 modern non-lethal rules are the stupidest thing I think I've ever seen in a d20 game system.
Other stuff: Spycraft also has the chase system, while d20M seems to be using a standard grid based vehicular combat system. Which is better is a matter of taste, I guess. I'm not going to compare the campaign/spellcasting stuff for two reasons. First of all, the d20M stuff isn't in the SRD. Second, the Spycraft stuff is in a different book, Shadowforce Archer.
Overall Impressions (IMHO): d20 modern has a few nice touches. The wealth system, the classes. Otherwise, it's nothing revolutionary, and quite often dull. Spycraft still has the title, in my opinion, of best modern d20 game.
Of course, this won't stop people from drooling over d20 Modern and harping on about how great it is just because it's a WotC product. It's not bad, but not the be-all, end-all of modern roleplaying some people are preaching. Ah, well.
Classes: Use spycraft if you want some seriously bad mofo's. Use d20 modern if you want something a bit lower key.
Feats: Use Spycraft. The d20M feats section is pathetic. Especially when you consider that all the +2 to two skills feats are effectively the same thing. Spycraft has TONS of feats, and is really well done. d20M kind of sucks as far as feats go. Especially this stupid 13 Wis req burst fire garbage.
Skills: Spycraft all the way. With the skill enhancement feats it contains, and the ability to crit on a skill check, it adds a ton more flavor then d20M.
Action Dice vs. Action Points: Depends on how cinematic you want it. Action Points are limited, you only get more each level (meaning people will save them until they have no other choice), only one can be used each round, and you can't get a roll higher than +6 from them. Spycraft's action dice refresh each session, you get more for doing cool stuff, the gm has some (usually more than you, and they're bigger too!), and you can keep spending them as long as you have them.
Equipment: Spycraft's budget point/gadget point system is good for people working for a specific organization that provides their equip. d20M has a much better system for people on their own. Some of the equip values are a bit wonky, though. 17 for a 35mm camera??? And why, oh why, did they make starting wealth have a 6 point (2d4) random variance? What if I want to play a wealthy character, but roll crappy, while someone else in the party doesn't bother, but rolls an 8? How is that even remotely fair?
Combat: Spycraft re-wrote the system almost entirely, and streamlined it in quite a few ways. d20M is D&D with guns. I must say that, if nothing else, one thing I enjoy about the spycraft combat system is that if you get multiple attacks, they're all at the SAME bonus, meaning it's easy to roll a bunch of d20's and not have to keep track of which one is for which attack. Speeds things up = good. Oh, and the d20 modern non-lethal rules are the stupidest thing I think I've ever seen in a d20 game system.
Other stuff: Spycraft also has the chase system, while d20M seems to be using a standard grid based vehicular combat system. Which is better is a matter of taste, I guess. I'm not going to compare the campaign/spellcasting stuff for two reasons. First of all, the d20M stuff isn't in the SRD. Second, the Spycraft stuff is in a different book, Shadowforce Archer.
Overall Impressions (IMHO): d20 modern has a few nice touches. The wealth system, the classes. Otherwise, it's nothing revolutionary, and quite often dull. Spycraft still has the title, in my opinion, of best modern d20 game.
Of course, this won't stop people from drooling over d20 Modern and harping on about how great it is just because it's a WotC product. It's not bad, but not the be-all, end-all of modern roleplaying some people are preaching. Ah, well.
Ranger REG
Explorer
Actually, the Modern System Reference Document is available for download right now. Go to:
www.Wizards.com/d20
And click on the right side of the screen that says "d20 Modern System Reference Document" for the download page. The format is the same as the original SRD (RTF files, split into sections).
www.Wizards.com/d20
And click on the right side of the screen that says "d20 Modern System Reference Document" for the download page. The format is the same as the original SRD (RTF files, split into sections).
Ranger REG
Explorer
I'm sure that both products have their strengths and weaknesses. It will not deter others to buy either or both products you personally dislike.
Personally, I'm not looking for the best RPG, just the ones that are both playable and enjoyable. I maybe a cheap SOB, but I'm not THAT stingy.
Personally, I'm not looking for the best RPG, just the ones that are both playable and enjoyable. I maybe a cheap SOB, but I'm not THAT stingy.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Mortaneus said:I just finished reading through the d20 modern SRD, and here's my analysis:
Overall Impressions (IMHO): d20 modern has a few nice touches. The wealth system, the classes. Otherwise, it's nothing revolutionary, and quite often dull. Spycraft still has the title, in my opinion, of best modern d20 game.
Of course, this won't stop people from drooling over d20 Modern and harping on about how great it is just because it's a WotC product. It's not bad, but not the be-all, end-all of modern roleplaying some people are preaching. Ah, well.
Now that is some good comedy.
You have not read d20 modern (just the SRD), yet you call it dull, in comparison to Spycraft, which I assume you actually read (even the non-rules bits, you know, the parts that make it non-dull).
Did you really think the recitation of out of context rules was going to be exciting? Or do you think maybe you should READ THE BOOK before you judge it?
Put another way, do you think Spycraft, if just an SRD without its context or flavor text, would be as attractive a game on first read?
Sorry, I just think your bias is showing. My guess is that you don't much like WOTC any more (if you ever did), and went in with the attitude that d20 Modern was probably going to be crap.
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Well, I'd say the SRD gives you a good idea if you know what you're looking for in game mechanics, but I'm not getting into the middle of this one ...
Just ran a pulp 40's Spycraft game last night. I've run a couple Dark*Matter d20 cobbled-together games,all based on pretty much what I'd gleaned from messageboards and Polyhedron articles, but turned out to be almost dead on. So I think I can compare.
This is not advocating one over the other -- the question was about integrating the systems. I concur with Digital Dark, and offer a little advice sampling the two based on my experience.
First off, the rules match the tone. Captain America and James Bond are Spycraft, not really d20Modern (one might argue they're DNW...
) The choice is, IMHO, what game you're going for -- "Yikes, people are shooting at us!" is d20Modern, while "YEAH! PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING AT US!" is a tad more Spycraft.
They can be blended.
-- Add the Spycraft feats like a spice for deadlier combat and more hyper action. Unarmed combat's damn tough in D20Modern, so I'd sample to flavor if you want gun-fu.
-- The Spycraft classes are okay, but the Snoop/Fixer crossover's always been a little weird for me. These classes or for a SPY GAME, and not really anything else. You'll note the Spycraft expansion books are introducing new base classes every book to cover different options.
D20Modern's a LOT more flexible yet less heroic. Probably, your D20Modern characters need to be three or four levels higher than your Spycraft characters in order to handle the same threat.
--use the d20M Skills for the blend or, frankly, for either game alone. (sorry, Spycraft, but there are just too many skills, it'll spread the Skill Points too thin) Really, you can't compliment the D20M guys enough here; this skill list, with the tweaks for tech, will replace my D&D skill list. For using versions of the skills requiring the Wealth system in a non-Wealth system, look to the Star Wars game for an adaptation
-- Personal combat: Tough to argue with the Spycraft streamlining, and the sytem's BUILT for firearms, not ADAPTED to firearms. All those gun options "Cover Me", "Keep his head down", etc, are organic and well handled.
Personally, I'd use the Autofire rules from d20Modern (never liked the -2 a square in Spycraft), but consider changing the BURST feat Prereq to a BAB or Weapon Focus rather than a WIS +13. Most people aren't noticing that the feat allows you to point a gun with a brutal recoil at an opponent and HOLD IT ON HIM, as opposed to just hosing down an area, so I don't have as big a problem with that requiring a feat.
I like the Armor DR rules in Spycraft -- particularly considering the "nonlethal damage" and "massive damage threshold" rules. Losing Subdual as a Game Mechanic is a pain in the butt, but it's your game, slap it back in at will. Once again, I don't think it's a big mechanics thing, more game flavor. The joy I as a GM have describing the brutal impact of machine-gun fire slamming into a character from behind is important to the gaming experience.
Just remember -- two attacks a round at your base attack is much deadlier. MUCH. Two bursts from a submachinegun is potentially 8d6 of damage, and a first level guy can do that.
-- Vehicle combat ... arrr. For a chase, Spycraft wins hands down; who the devil wants to sketch out exactly the intersections and off ramps on a battle map for the character-style vehicle rules of D20Modern? On the other hand, for tactical, multi-vehicle free-for alls, the nod must go to d20Modern. Someday I'll get that system blend done, throwing in the excellent Dragonstar rules (and ayone wanting to run a futristic campaign should look at the two new equipment books for Star Wars and Dragonstar, both great ...).
I would at the least suggest stealing the "Open, tight,closed" terrain/obstacle rules from Spycraft. Weirdly, a variation of this system was in the Pulp Adventures in Polyhedron, but was not used in the game.
I also like the Spycraft penalty to a driver who mucks about doing stuff and not just focusing on driving. Again, what you choose form here is what's appropriate to your campaign.
-- Wealth system is a great world system, Budget points in Spycraft good for a group who has the resources of an Agency. Again, there's probably a conversion/combination lurking in the wings somewhere.
-- I like the Spycraft Psionics system, but I'm biased toward Feat-and-Skill based Psionics. Introducing more classicly "psychic" abilities to the Psionics Spell List (and it is a spell list) in D20M to flavor probably isn't a bad idea. But if you're going to blend the two, choose one or the other. Your third level Spycraft Telepath will flash-fry your third level D20Modern Telepath, waving his little Bear Claw around. "Grrr...."
-- Magic's too campaign-based to be factored into a comparison of the systems. Thirst and Fringescript are cool, but definitley meant for NPC's with the rules for PC's done somewhat grudgingly.
Have fun.
John
Just ran a pulp 40's Spycraft game last night. I've run a couple Dark*Matter d20 cobbled-together games,all based on pretty much what I'd gleaned from messageboards and Polyhedron articles, but turned out to be almost dead on. So I think I can compare.
This is not advocating one over the other -- the question was about integrating the systems. I concur with Digital Dark, and offer a little advice sampling the two based on my experience.
First off, the rules match the tone. Captain America and James Bond are Spycraft, not really d20Modern (one might argue they're DNW...
) The choice is, IMHO, what game you're going for -- "Yikes, people are shooting at us!" is d20Modern, while "YEAH! PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING AT US!" is a tad more Spycraft.They can be blended.
-- Add the Spycraft feats like a spice for deadlier combat and more hyper action. Unarmed combat's damn tough in D20Modern, so I'd sample to flavor if you want gun-fu.
-- The Spycraft classes are okay, but the Snoop/Fixer crossover's always been a little weird for me. These classes or for a SPY GAME, and not really anything else. You'll note the Spycraft expansion books are introducing new base classes every book to cover different options.
D20Modern's a LOT more flexible yet less heroic. Probably, your D20Modern characters need to be three or four levels higher than your Spycraft characters in order to handle the same threat.
--use the d20M Skills for the blend or, frankly, for either game alone. (sorry, Spycraft, but there are just too many skills, it'll spread the Skill Points too thin) Really, you can't compliment the D20M guys enough here; this skill list, with the tweaks for tech, will replace my D&D skill list. For using versions of the skills requiring the Wealth system in a non-Wealth system, look to the Star Wars game for an adaptation
-- Personal combat: Tough to argue with the Spycraft streamlining, and the sytem's BUILT for firearms, not ADAPTED to firearms. All those gun options "Cover Me", "Keep his head down", etc, are organic and well handled.
Personally, I'd use the Autofire rules from d20Modern (never liked the -2 a square in Spycraft), but consider changing the BURST feat Prereq to a BAB or Weapon Focus rather than a WIS +13. Most people aren't noticing that the feat allows you to point a gun with a brutal recoil at an opponent and HOLD IT ON HIM, as opposed to just hosing down an area, so I don't have as big a problem with that requiring a feat.
I like the Armor DR rules in Spycraft -- particularly considering the "nonlethal damage" and "massive damage threshold" rules. Losing Subdual as a Game Mechanic is a pain in the butt, but it's your game, slap it back in at will. Once again, I don't think it's a big mechanics thing, more game flavor. The joy I as a GM have describing the brutal impact of machine-gun fire slamming into a character from behind is important to the gaming experience.
Just remember -- two attacks a round at your base attack is much deadlier. MUCH. Two bursts from a submachinegun is potentially 8d6 of damage, and a first level guy can do that.
-- Vehicle combat ... arrr. For a chase, Spycraft wins hands down; who the devil wants to sketch out exactly the intersections and off ramps on a battle map for the character-style vehicle rules of D20Modern? On the other hand, for tactical, multi-vehicle free-for alls, the nod must go to d20Modern. Someday I'll get that system blend done, throwing in the excellent Dragonstar rules (and ayone wanting to run a futristic campaign should look at the two new equipment books for Star Wars and Dragonstar, both great ...).
I would at the least suggest stealing the "Open, tight,closed" terrain/obstacle rules from Spycraft. Weirdly, a variation of this system was in the Pulp Adventures in Polyhedron, but was not used in the game.
I also like the Spycraft penalty to a driver who mucks about doing stuff and not just focusing on driving. Again, what you choose form here is what's appropriate to your campaign.
-- Wealth system is a great world system, Budget points in Spycraft good for a group who has the resources of an Agency. Again, there's probably a conversion/combination lurking in the wings somewhere.
-- I like the Spycraft Psionics system, but I'm biased toward Feat-and-Skill based Psionics. Introducing more classicly "psychic" abilities to the Psionics Spell List (and it is a spell list) in D20M to flavor probably isn't a bad idea. But if you're going to blend the two, choose one or the other. Your third level Spycraft Telepath will flash-fry your third level D20Modern Telepath, waving his little Bear Claw around. "Grrr...."
-- Magic's too campaign-based to be factored into a comparison of the systems. Thirst and Fringescript are cool, but definitley meant for NPC's with the rules for PC's done somewhat grudgingly.
Have fun.
John
Desdichado
Hero
Great stuff! Keep it coming. d20 Modern is exactly what I've been looking for, but frankly, I'm considering Spycraft to add to my d20 Modern game now! 
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