d20 Modern: Melee or Ranged?

[Plane Sailing]

The big question is in finding out what kind of campaign your DM intends to run, since if he anticipates lots of snipers firing in big warehouses, then a streetfighter will be shafted. On the other hand, if it is all going to be in narrow prison corridors and mazes, likewise the gunfighter.

OK, hyperbole aside, you really need to check out a concept with your DM, to make sure you can work with it and have fun.

Out of interest, how would you justify a dual-kukri wielding character? I'd have to say if I was your DM I'd reckon that was just munchkinising

You could make a great melee fighter by starting off as a strong hero and then putting together some combination of Soldier and Martial Artist advanced classes. Someone who ended up as Stonr4/Sold8/MArt8 would have had great fun along the way and would be excellent at taking foes down in melee.

In some campaigns a brawler or martial artist would do well, focussing on using your hands and body as a weapon - no problems with concealing your lethal weapons! If it was a more military campaign you can get away with bigger weapons (swords/staves) or guns. Does your DM anticipate covert operations of "all guns blazing" kind of thing? Is it straight Modern, one of the three campaign settings or something different again?

I'd suggest that you start off as a strong hero, anyway. The initial BAB boost will make you better with guns than a 1st Fast hero anyway, and you can always take a Fast hero level later to get the requisite skills to get into Gunslinger if the campaign is moving that way.

Cheers

 

[Shallown]

If I remeber correctly going the gunslinger fast hero route youy can doa litttle of both, becuase unlike D&D I think the two weapon and ambidextirty applies to missile and melee so you can be a duel knife weilding gunslinger.

Just an idea

 

[Mistwell]

It is most definitely not true that guns are the most powerful weapons in d20 modern. The katana is. (The chainsaw does an extra d6 damage, but lower threat range, and just plain not as cool.)

If your character has Str 16, the only weapon that will outdo his damage is that high powered sniper rifle, and you'll still have greater threat range, and your Melee Smash tallent will make you deal more anyway. If you get Ignor Hardness and Sunder, you'll be able to casually slice all of your opponent's weapons in two. If you get Unbalance Opponent and Defensive Martial Arts, your opponents will be nothing against you in Melee. and whenever they try to shoot you, just knock their heads off. For that reason, you might want to take Combat Reflexes, in order to knock the heads off of multiple jerks with guns in one round.

Just some random thoughts,
-Jeph

I'm not sure why you think this. Sure, the Katana is a good weapon. With your 16 strength, and wielding in two hands, you do 2d6 +4 (6-16, average 11), and crit on a 19-20. That's good damage, and would make for a nice Highlander-type character.

All of the following guns are about the same or better, however, and can be used at range (as well as turned into a melee weapon in a pinch). The only draw-back is the slightly higher crit range of the Katana (but then Katana has a lower maximum damage than these weapons do, though a higher minimum). And none of this is counting the auto-fire capabilities or feats that can apply to guns, of course.

Barret Light Fifty 2d12 (2-24, average 13), crit on a 20.
Browning BPS 2d10 (2-20, average 11), crit on a 20.
HK G3 2d10 (2-20, average 11), crit on a 20.
HK PSG1 2d10 (2-20, average 11), crit on a 20.
Remington 700 2d10 (2-20, average 11), crit on a 20.
Winchester 94 2d10 (2-20, average 11), crit on a 20.

That's of course not counting the exotic guns. And, since it only takes one feat to use all guns, and a feat that is pretty common for various occupations and feat listings for classes, it is easier to get the proficiency to use a gun. The Katana, on the other hand, requires an exotic weapon proficiency just for the use of that particular weapon. Your gun user will be taking an occupation that gives them personal firearms proficiency, and using that extra feat that you burn on the exotic weapon proficiency to get Point Blank Shot, making all their attacks within 30 feet at +1/+1.

I think the Katana is your best option for melee weapons. But I think the various gun options mentioned above are still as good, if not better, than the Katana.

 

[DM_Matt]

Another Issue with the gun gap: This will further damage the already iffy CR system by creating a power gap between characters in a war/anarchic settings and more realistic (in the everyday sense) lawful ones.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Following up on Mistwells point, the chap with the gun could easily get "Double Tap" or perhaps "Burst" and seriously increase the damage he's doing with his gun.

 

[comrade raoul]

If katana-dude's a Strong, he's likely to get an extra +3 damage from advanced melee smash, which puts him up to 9-19 damage, average 14. This is enough to reliably make it past the maximum damage threshold of most low-level opponents; throw in Power Attack (which can sacrifice some accuracy to beat the maximum damage threshold of more enemies, and helps balance out Double Tap, by the way) and Cleave, and he'll be slicing and dicing his way through hordes of thugs in no time.

Still, a chainsaw's deadlier, since it ups the character's maximum damage to 10-25, average 17.5. This is getting dangerously close to automatically overcoming max damage thesholds, especially with Power Attack for folks with Improved Damage Threshold. Give that chainsaw to a soldier 2/shadow slayer 10, and you're hitting for a monstrous 17-32. Beat that, gunslingers.

 

[Mistwell]

If katana-dude's a Strong, he's likely to get an extra +3 damage from advanced melee smash, which puts him up to 9-19 damage, average 14. This is enough to reliably make it past the maximum damage threshold of most low-level opponents; throw in Power Attack (which can sacrifice some accuracy to beat the maximum damage threshold of more enemies, and helps balance out Double Tap, by the way) and Cleave, and he'll be slicing and dicing his way through hordes of thugs in no time.

Yeah, see, you are a minimum 5th level if you have a +3 damage from advanced melee smash. That's around the level where that maximum damage for opponants starts to go up as well (go figure, the designers made things fairly balanced). And since you have to close with your opponant to make this work, you won't be getting those second attacks from BAB like the gun users are. Yes, cleave may kick in. But then cleave can only impact one person next to you, while Strafe and normal Autofire hits many opponants. If you think Power Attack will be your ace in the hole, you are forgetting Burst Fire, which adds not +2, but +2 DICE in damage. So now those guns are doing an extra 2d10 in damage (whereas you will only be getting a +4 damage for the same power attack move).

Still, a chainsaw's deadlier, since it ups the character's maximum damage to 10-25, average 17.5. This is getting dangerously close to automatically overcoming max damage thesholds, especially with Power Attack for folks with Improved Damage Threshold. Give that chainsaw to a soldier 2/shadow slayer 10, and you're hitting for a monstrous 17-32. Beat that, gunslingers.

So you are doing an average of 24.5, and are level 12.

A bursting HK G3 does 4d10, for an average of 22. A first level character with an occupation that grants personal firearms proficiency (such as Military or Investigative) can have advanced firearms proficiency and Burst as their starting feats. If they can requisition or buy one, they are doing nearly the same damage as your 12 level character at FIRST LEVEL. As their BAB goes up, they will be doing this more than once each round as well (as opposed to your melee attacker who has to use a move action to close with the opponant).

Dual-wielding Tec-9s with burst would get the character 8d6 damage (8-48), for an average of 28, and a disgusting amount of damage as their BAB grants additional attacks.

Again, I am not saying that melee-weapon attacking is a bad idea, I am just saying it is not clearly superior to gun use. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, and they seem roughly equal to me.

 

[Mistwell]

Another Issue with the gun gap: This will further damage the already iffy CR system by creating a power gap between characters in a war/anarchic settings and more realistic (in the everyday sense) lawful ones.

What gun gap would that be? The guns still seem basically balanced against melee attacking, as this discussion has shown. Heck, I already saw a good build with the Brawl chain of feats that will be as effective as guns and melee weapon attacks as well, and I am sure there is one for martial arts attacks too. I dont see any gap. Have you actually played the game and found the CRs to be lacking?

 

[Jeph]

But melee characters have something that ranged don't: attacks of opportunity. And with Combat Reflexes, that turns into serious slamage against characters who rely on their firearms. Add in Run or the Increased Speed tallent, and closing isn't as much of a problem. Sunder is conveniant if you're going with Power Attack / Cleave, and whammo, your opponent's AK47 is sliced in half.

Now, have we considered Two Weapon Fighting? Remember, a proficient character can wield a Katana in 1 hand. That closes the autofire gap a bit.

-Jeph