D20 Modern - Mines

[Berkut]

Hey all. I'm currently at work, down time, and I am working on a scenerio, and I need a couple stats from the D20 system. I left my book at home.

It's to do with Mines.

How much damage does an Anti-personel mine do? what kind of intervals does the damage increase in?

Also Anti-tank mines, same thing.

Thanks Guys

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hey all. I'm currently at work, down time, and I am working on a scenerio, and I need a couple stats from the D20 system. I left my book at home.

It's to do with Mines.

How much damage does an Anti-personel mine do? what kind of intervals does the damage increase in?

I figure it would do 4d6 damage (same as a grenade). A minefield would be an EL 7 obstacle.

Claymore mines do 6d6 damage, mainly in a cone. A single claymore mine would be an EL 6 obstacle, and a field of them would be an EL 9 obstacle.

What do you mean by intervals of damage increase?

Also Anti-tank mines, same thing.

Thanks Guys

I don't know - I guess a lot, and they would ignore hardness, too. If you give tanks a more realistic number of hit points, the damage of the anti-tank mine has to increase. Mines are more effective than rocket launchers - if experience in Israel and Afghanistan are any judge. However, they wouldn't be set off by humans stepping on one, which means they can do a lot of damage without serioiusly harming your campaign, one hopes. (Now, blowing the heroes into chunky salsa while also destroying their Hummer might not be such a good idea...)

I wonder what the EL of a poison trap is?

I wouldn't actually try to use the stats of the poison as listed in D20 Modern. I'd rather have a slightly more flexible system, where you could increase the save DC or even ability damage at the cost of raising CR.

According to my probably wildly inaccurate calculations, I figure the hazard CR of mustard gas, if it had a save DC of 16 and did 1d4 Con damage per round (primary and secondary) would be 12.

I figure this from using the rules from Iron Heroes (to figure out the approximate CR - I think an 11th-level character can make a poison that does 1d4 Con damage, then I reduced the CR by two because that Iron Heroes character would have other abilities).

I increased the CR by 3 because it's exposure over time, rather than one round (so CR 9 for one whiff).

Finally, the save DC came from a chart I use (level 9 opponents could make a Fort save DC 16 half the time, which might not be particularly accurate at all - the DC here is low for CR 12 because the players have to breathe the stuff every round).

 

[Roudi]

The current d20 Modern system doesn't model damage intervals for splash weapons like grenades (as in, dealing maximum damage at minimum distance, and doing less damage in larger radii increments). Also, the current system supports interchangeability between missiles, grenades, and mines. So, any grenade stats you see can be made a mine simply changing the circumstances under which it deals damage.

In the core rules, true antipersonel and anti-armor mines haven't really been modelled.

 

[Berkut]

Thank you Severedhead. What I meant by intervals, was.. there are mines that weight 5 pounds, and mines that weight 20 pounds... so...

 

[smokewolf]

However, they wouldn't be set off by humans stepping on one, which means they can do a lot of damage without serioiusly harming your campaign, one hopes. (Now, blowing the heroes into chunky salsa while also destroying their Hummer might not be such a good idea...)

Unfortunately this is a common misconception nowadays. While its true in the past most AT mines were pressure activated (and set to several hundred pounds thereby generally safe for your average foot soldier), that meant they would only be set off by tires or tracks. This left a small profile to actually work on the vehicles. Most modern mines employ a variety of detonation methods from pressure, tilt rods, magnetic fields, light/shadow, etc (some mines even self destruct after a certain amount of time). This makes AT mines just as deadly for dismounted troops as is does for vehicles.

One of the problems I have with mines in D20 is the unrealistic nature of damage in the system. Take an AT mine for instance. The M15 AT Mine carries 22lbs of explosive. That would equate to 88D6 damage just in explosive power.

I do think the AP damage listed is ok, most AP mines are either 1 or 1.5 lbs of explosive, so 4d6 (AP mine) and 6d6 (claymore) are realistic. Make sure the damage type though is slashing due to fragments.

Most AT Mines also employ nearby AP (anti personnel) mines to dissaude people from disarming them. Magentic field mines are probably the worse for disarming now, the best practice against those is to bomb the field or bypass it completely. You can not even send troops in to disarm without them changing the magnetic field thereby setting the off. And don't forget the antitampering devices placed on most serious mines.

One thing to remember about mines, they are used for two different reason - to defend an area or deny an area. Defensive minefields are placed (usually hidden) to kill/immobilize a force in order to protect friendly troops. Denial minefields act to slow, hinder or redirect enemy forces. These are often surface laid in plain sight. They are also generally watched by friendlies and act to funnel enemy forces into an area predetermined for the best possible kill shots. Sometimes though they are laid to protect a retreating force to slow down their attackers too.

 

[Roudi]

One thing to remember about mines, they are used for two different reason - to defend an area or deny an area. Defensive minefields are placed (usually hidden) to kill/immobilize a force in order to protect friendly troops. Denial minefields act to slow, hinder or redirect enemy forces. These are often surface laid in plain sight. They are also generally watched by friendlies and act to funnel enemy forces into an area predetermined for the best possible kill shots. Sometimes though they are laid to protect a retreating force to slow down their attackers too.

I bow to your ranks in Knowledge (tactics), smokewolf. If there's one thing I have yet to see in a Military d20 Modern game, it's a well-laid minefield. Certainly gives me some ideas...

 

[smokewolf]

Minefields have come out of favor with most modern militaries after the ban. Most minefields last years and they are still clearing sections of Yugoslavia (or whatever its called this day) from WWII. And most minefields in Afganistan are from the Russian invasion.

I just got through reading Generation Kill (awesome book btw) and the only real causualties came from the single detonation of a toe popper (a small mine designed to blow off the foot, theory being that it takes two soldiers to carry the wounded off the battlefield, thereby effectively removing three soldiers with a one ounce explosive). One guy lost his foot and another had so much debry thrown in his face he lost his eye.

BTW, if anyone also play in a WOD game, I wrote the tactical weapons section for Armory (out in Feb I think) and I go into detail about mines and their uses in it, along with other explosives.

 

[smokewolf]

I bow to your ranks in Knowledge (tactics), smokewolf. If there's one thing I have yet to see in a Military d20 Modern game, it's a well-laid minefield. Certainly gives me some ideas...

Defensive minefields:

These are not just laid hapenstance. There is a method and reason behind their deployment. Each defensive perimeter has what are called likely avenues of approach. These are the direction and areas an enemy will likely use to assault through. Mostly determined by the cover and concealment they provide and the terrain type (dense forest for example will not work for armor, but will for light infantry). There are also areas which due to cover and concealment might be extremely hard to defend against (the idea being to engage the enemy at a distance, thereby exposing the enemy to fire for a long period of time in the hopes of thwarting his attempts).

Obviously those areas which are difficult to defend are priority for defensive minefield placement. Lacking those areas (which finding a location without them is paramount to defense) likely AoA are next on the list. The idea here will be both to defend and deny. Any troops wondering into the field should be toast, while at the same time forcing a determined attacker into an area which provides the best field of fire at the longest exposure with minimal risk to friendlies.

Alot of times, claymores are the simplies method for this. Forward Observation Posts are estibalished outside the perimeter with claymore beyond them. The FOPs are manned 24/7. The claymores are set for both trip and command detonation. Their job is not really to destroy an enemy, but to give the defenders advanced warning while at the same time slowing the enemy down. There should be no real expectation of defeating an attack with this type of defensive minefield. BTW, sucks to be the guys caught in the FOP when this happens. Not only are you out there with the enemy, but when it come time to retreat back to the perimeter you have to come running from the direction the enemy is toward nervous troops (not to mention this would normally be done in the dark even).


Denial Minefields:

These are often the most deadly for enemy troops. The idea being to either deny an area to the enemy or force the into the area of your choosing. Most of these are surface laid or minimally disguised, some aren't even live. These could be placed on a road to force the enemy into muddy fields, or used to prevent access to a bridge (forcing them to make a river crossing, slow and dangerous) or even better force them towards a well placed ambush. This is used best when it also forces the targets to face a particular direction thereby giving better profiles for the ambushers (such as forcing a tank column to give the ambushers side shots).

These minefields are often laid using face delivery methods, such as being dropped from airplanes, or laid using artillery or from a Gemms or Flipper system.

A good example was during Vietnam, American forces often placed non-live mine surface laid on trails. This forced the VC off the trail, generally in a particular direction due to other obstacles right into the path of experly placed claymores and triagulated fire.

Another good example of a denial minefield is Bat21 where they drop the mines from a helicopter to stop the VC from crossing the river.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Thank you Severedhead. What I meant by intervals, was.. there are mines that weight 5 pounds, and mines that weight 20 pounds... so...

I think it depends on how realistic you want your game to be. IMO, it's generally not worth bothering about how big the mine was. Just say "it was small" and do xd6 damage or "it was big" and does yd6 damage.

However, if it's a realistic military game, and some of your players have as many ranks in Knowledge (tactics) as Smokewolf, then it gets more complicated.