d20 Modern or Spycraft?

Re: Re: d20 Modern or Spycraft?

baseballfury said:


I'd go for d20 Modern, simply because it'll be the standard for modern play from now on. With Spycraft, you're stuck with what AEG gives you, whereas lots of companies are producing d20 Modern stuff.

But Spycraft is OGC -- and might I say, does a HECKUVA job in making their back-page version of the OGL clear on what is and isn't OGC in each book. They regularly publish expansions and companion books that are really superior -- their mini-campaign Gentlemen's Agreement is triple-statted by level of play and the Modern Arms Guide is bloody brilliant. AoO is gone, the feat trees are fantastic, psionics are feat-and-skill based, no difference between move actions and standard actions ...

That said, it really is a style choice. Spycraft is more high-powered and more lethal. D20 Modern does a lot fo great stuff, and if you want to do ANYTHING not involving the PC's being members of a spy organization, D20Modern's got the world-building goods.

Tough call. But I will bet that this year you'll see homebrew conversions for mixing the two. Perhaps in just the next few weeks, if I get some free time ...
 

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Re: Re: Re: d20 Modern or Spycraft?

jonrog1 said:


Tough call. But I will bet that this year you'll see homebrew conversions for mixing the two. Perhaps in just the next few weeks, if I get some free time ...

And you'll of course be posting your ideas on the boards, with a link from this thread. :)

Should you get some free time that is.

Cause you're just a nice guy like that. ;)
 
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Re: Re: d20 Modern or Spycraft?

Moonshadow said:
Some friends and I are thinking about possibly starting a campaign with a "la femme nikita" type flavor. Not having any experience with either, which would be a better product to use, d20 modern or spycraft? Thanks.

I suggest going for spycraft- the system is solid. It enhances a lot of the d20 rules: criticals, skills, departments, and the expanded feat trees. It also adds the chase rules which are, while not perfect, very exciting. My players really get into the chases- and it is usually hard to get them emotionally involved in any scene.

I am very unimpressed with d20 Modern- it does not add much to the d20 system and even detracts from it with its base/advanced class structure. Occupations and wealth were good ideas, but I think they came about poorly. Magic and psi are just ported over, but at the cost of only gaining weak powers at higher levels.

Combat is a lot more deadly in d20 modern versus the cinematic version of Spycraft. Vehicle combat is more strategic in d20 modern versus, again, the cinematic structure of Spycraft.

baseballfury said:

I'd go for d20 Modern, simply because it'll be the standard for modern play from now on. With Spycraft, you're stuck with what AEG gives you, whereas lots of companies are producing d20 Modern stuff.

There is at least one other company that will be producing products for Spycraft- though their name does not come to mind (starts with a "P", perhaps).

They have mentioned multiple times that they are open to be working with other companies to produce products.

Good luck, Moonshadow.
SD
 



I must say that, IMO, Spycraft is the superior of the two. True, it's not as generic as d20 Modern but it is still adaptable to things other than secret organizations, spygames, etc. I should know, since I'm running a GTA-style game using Spycraft. No secret organization and no spies; the PC's are basically criminals out to make a name for themselves. It's kinda like Quentin Tarentino D20.

I haven't looked very closely at d20 Modern, but nothing about it really grabs me and says "Woah! This is amazing!" It's a generic d20 system game made for running in modern times. It has none of the flavor (and none of the righteously cool feats) that Spycraft does. True, if you wanted to integrate magic or psionics you will need to purchase some extra suppliments for Spycraft but I still think the base system is better and warrants the inconvenience. My only gripe is that noone has put out a d20 cybernetics suppliment (that I'm aware of) so I can't really do an effective Shadowrun conversion yet.

Edit - Geeze, I forgot to even address the initial question...

For a La femme Nikita style game, Spycraft is definitely the way to go. It fits that genre like a glove and encourages the players to do some really out-there stunts, which I like.
 
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Salutations,

I will give it a shot.

Statistics:

D20M- Uses hit points, and has a massive damage check at DC = Con

Spycraft- Use VP/WP, crits do damage to WP

Races:
Both allow only human, but both offer a different way to differentiate characters.

D20M- Occupations(each offers different bonuses)

Spycraft- Departments(each offers different bonuses) of training

My opinion- departments are well balanced and in further books have shown they can represent past vocations. D20M's occupations seems to have no system to them and are not very balanced at all.

Classes:
D20M- 6 base classes that each revolves around a stat (STR, CON, etc)
They go up to 10th lvl and each offers bonus feats and talents. Talents are class abilities, but can be chosen. So your strong hero can take a talent that allows him to do more melee damage or a talent that allows them to carry more.

It is expected you will go into an advanced class- which is a step between a base class and a prestige class. Some examples are: soldier, martial artists, daredevil. They give more specific abilities.

Spycraft- 6 base classes that each revolve around a spy stereotype (soldier, faceman, wheelman, snoop, fixer, pointman).
Each class goes to 20th level and they range in flexibility, but none as flexible as the D20M base classes. High level abilities of classes are very powerful.

My opinion- I think the D20M classes are generally too weak and the generic base classes turn me away.

Skills:

D20M- Ported from D20, but added more skills for modern use. Some skills are better explained.

Spycraft- Ported from D20, but added more skills for modern use. Added a critical success/failure system to skills.

Feats:

D20M- Ported from D20, but added more skills for guns and many +2/+2 skill feats.

Spycraft- Many are ported over, but a lot more added. There are many mid and high level feats. There feats are broken into types: chase, skill, melee combat, ranged combat, unarmed combat, gear, and style. Some classes/departments give bonus feats restricted to a type, but generally feats can be taken from anywhere.

My opinion- There are way too many +2/+2 skill bonus feats in D20M. I think it is time that these feats are just made into one general one.

Spycraft feats give some high level ones- which is much needed. There are way too few high level feats, especially combat-related, in standard D20. The skill feats give more some more options on customizing skill lists and even just getting more skill points.

Equipment:

D20M- PC gets a wealth rating which they check against to purchase something. It represents the abstract nature of credit and such.

Spycraft- PC gets budget/gadget points to buy standard gear for their character, and they missions points to buy specific gear for the outlined mission.

Armor:

D20M- Makes you harder to hit

Spycraft- Reduces damage (most of the time)

Combat:

D20M- With guns doing 2d# damage and the D20M burst feat, it can be very deadly. The massive damage check comes up often.

Spycraft- Breaks villians into three categories: minions, henchmen, and masterminds. Only the latter two can crit against PC. It can still be very deadly.

My opinion- players will learn to use cover in either system or will make a lot of characters

Chases:

D20M- Very strategic. It is basically d20 combat with cars. The GM needs to map out the area and consider a lot of possibilities.

Spycraft- Very cinematic. The drivers choose manuveurs (depending on who is predator and who is prey) and make a contested skill check to see who succedes. No mapping required, and many manuveurs will change the nature of the race (short cuts and such). The downside is the system gets a bit harded to handle when there are more then two vehicles, but it can be done.

Action:

D20M- Gives action points to pc (number determined by class and level). They can be used to alter rolls and activate class abilities. They refresh when pc levels.

Spycraft- Gives action dice (the die type determined by level). They can be used to alter rolls, activate criticals, and activate class abilities. They refresh each session of play.

My opinion- If you believe in slow level'ng (as I do), then the refresh system of D20M is a killer considering it is used for class abilities.

Magic/Psi:
Both are in the base D20M book, but you will need to buy Shadowforce Archer for the Spycraft rules.

Magic:
D20M- same as D20, but only available in advanced classes. So at 5th level you learn your 1st level spell.

Spycraft- Magic is largely classless. You gain access by feats and use followers/worshippers to cast spells. There are few minor spells, but this is mostly a npc-based system.

Psi:
D20M- same as D20, but only available in advanced classes. So at 5th level you learn your 1st level ability.

Spycraft- Base classes(iirc) for psi, but the system is largely skill/feat related. Many of the powers are similar to standard d20 system, but the mechanics are changed.

Support:

D20M- There are a lot of companies that will be coming out with a range of different books. It also has Polyhderon to give montly ideas.

Spycraft- Mostly AEG, but there is at least one other company producing books (eventually) for the game. AEG seems open to others doing the same, but wants control over who is producing what under the name of Spycraft.

I hope that helps a bit.
 

Re: Re: Re: d20 Modern or Spycraft?

Sagan Darkside said:



Combat is a lot more deadly in d20 modern versus the cinematic version of Spycraft.

Actually, I'd have to disagree with you here. The lethality levels of both games are actually pretty close, and Spycraft's tends to get more deadly at higher levels. d20 Modern uses a Death from Massive Damage rule similiar to CoC d20's; if you take an ammount of damage equal to or greater than your Damage Threshold (your Con, possibly modified by feats) then you must make a Fort save DC 15 or drop to -1 HP's. Pretty dangerous at low levels, sure, but eventually that 15 DC isn't much to worry about. Not to mention the fact that stabilizing a dying person isn't terribly hard either.

Spycraft has a Vit/Wound point system, so damage from crits go straight to your Wound points (which is equal to your Con score). Since your Con score isn't likely to ever change in Spycraft, you're looking at an average Wound Point range of 12-16, possibly higher if the character puts his max stat into Con & most of his ability points gained every four levels. Basically, this means that a crit with most weapons can kill you dead with one hit. Sniper rifles, if wielded by a trained user, can easily get crit ranges of 10-20 with high damage potential, and all you need to do to activate a crit is spend an Action Die. Boom. One dead agent.

So, I'd say that the overall lethality level of both games is about even, with d20 Modern getting less so at higher levels.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: d20 Modern or Spycraft?

Apok said:

Spycraft has a Vit/Wound point system, so damage from crits go straight to your Wound points (which is equal to your Con score).

You are correct, but (unless I am mistaken) only henchmen and masterminds can perform criticals. Since most enemies are minions- that eliminates that threat.

Anybody can do massive damage in D20M.

Also- there is GM control. A GM only activates a crit in spycraft when he/she wants to do so- and can restrict it to dramatic moments. There is no such control built into the rules of D20M.

SD
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d20 Modern or Spycraft?

Sagan Darkside said:


You are correct, but (unless I am mistaken) only henchmen and masterminds can perform criticals. Since most enemies are minions- that eliminates that threat.

Anybody can do massive damage in D20M.

Also- there is GM control. A GM only activates a crit in spycraft when he/she wants to do so- and can restrict it to dramatic moments. There is no such control built into the rules of D20M.

SD

Yes, very true about the minions not being able to crit per the rules, but seeing as how I'm a rat bastard DM, I think I may just ignore that one... :D Or, at the very least, say that minion crits would deal double Vit damage.

It is also true that the GM controls when and when not to apply a crit from an NPC, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I will do so 90% of the time. It's all a matter of feel. If the Control wants a more dramatic feel, then it's likely he won't activate crits unless dramatically appropriate, resulting in a game that's more cinematic and less dangerous. However, if you're going for a more realistic, grim & gritty feel (like I am) then you would always apply them if you can spare the Action Dice.

So, in that sense, the lethality of Spycraft is largely in the hands of the GM, but I just happen to like mine on the high side.
 

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