d20 Modern OR Spycraft

[Bill Scott]

Either book would work great, in my opinion, but it depends on how realistic you would want your game. Modern is more realistic, and cheaper because you would only have to buy one book initially, while Spycraft is more cinematic and will require either the Modern book or D@D Player's Handbook. If you go the Modern route, make sure you eventually pick up the Modern Player's Companion, Blood and Guts and maybe Blood and Fists

I really wish AEG would put out a more generic version of Spycraft, one with more generic classes. As it is, if you want to play something other than a spy game or A-team thing, you woul dhave to create several new classes. Which is tricky.

I suggested something this over at the AEG a few months ago and Morgenstern, I think that's who replied, hinted that something along those lines was in the works

 

[Psion]

Either are decent games. In general, I would say if it fits the espionage/paramility subgenre targeted by Spycraft, then use spycraft. Otherwise, D20 modern is more flexible and can generally be more easily adapted. The built in (and third party) support for d20 Modern is more in the vein of modern occult and action.

For an A-team feel, it almost seems like it was one of the sources AEG had in mind when designing the classes, so I'd say go for Spycraft.

D20 Modern is the choice to make. Why? Better support.

This is not true, depending on how you defined "better."

Wizards only meagerly supports d20 Modern themselves.

Spycraft, OTOH, is WELL supported by AEG.

Though there is a sizeable body of third party support for d20 modern, the third party support is not absent for Spycraft. While some of the d20 modern third party support is decent (TGM and RPGObjects, for example), I think that much of the rest of it is not up to the quality of additional support that AEG provides for its own game beyond what WotC does for d20 modern. Further, while there is might be more products total, many of them are redundant.

Which is not to say that Spycraft has it all over d20 modern when it comes to support. Just to say that the converse certainly is not true.

 

[Vigilance]

I think both are very well designed games.

I would give d20 Modern a slight edge if I had to choose because I feel it handles the wider range of games, from the Occult, to pure action, to spy genre, to military, to superhero.

However, that's admittedly a biased opinion on my part

Chuck

 

[Psion]

I would give d20 Modern a slight edge if I had to choose because I feel it handles the wider range of games, from the Occult, to pure action, to spy genre, to military, to superhero.

Which is true, but it's less dedicated nature mean that a more specific designed game aimed at one of those narrower topics has the potential to address that topic better.

In the case of Spycraft, I think it most certainly does.

 

[swrushing]

It really depends on the feel you want.

if you want A-team, modern is imo THE BETTER CHOICE.
If you want Rainbow Six clancey-esque, spycraft is imo THE BETTER CHOICE.

Either gives you combats with a DND longevity and a hint of danger (Modern's MDT and occasional failing frt save vs spycraft's Wp/VP and crits going against wounds) but modern isn't as gun-bunny precise while spycraft gets off on great amounts of techical detail.

I think each system has good and bad...

Spycraft 1.5 (as presented in stargate) is one of the best iterations of d20 mechanics i have seen. OK, i dislike the Wp/VP thing as they have presented it and think it doesn't fo guns the way I would prefer, BUT i still think the bulk of the rest is top drawer above and beyond. The fluid init system looks great at first blush, but frankly, in actual play i have found it easily ignored for simplicity. For a system as precise as it is, and as focused on gear as it is, I am astounded they don't count ammo for encumbrance (they count bottle of water purifying tablets, why not mags of 50 cal ammo?) but in general its easy to lose the crunch you don't want.

So i would base your decision primarily on two factors...

Flavor
If you want more gun-bunny hard gear details, take spycraft. If you want lighter on the details fast action, take d20 modern.

Money:
Modern right now seems a smaller investment. Get modern and maybe UMF or one of the 3rd party combat/guns products. Spycraft has rules scattered over multiple products.

 

[Turanil]

I don't know Spycraft, so don't answer your question.
I just want to note something, in case you wouldn't know about it already. That is, if you go for d20 Modern, the Menace Manual book (which is a book about NPCs of all sorts, in addition to critters) is sold for 14$ on Amazon.com if you try it enough times. Well, maybe they have fixed the bug by now, but four days ago it still worked. I mean the book costs around 25$ with 30% usual discount. However, delete and put again in cart until the bug again works, that is, giving you a 60% discount for a final price of 14$.

 

[takyris]

Both are great systems. And the Stargate game seems to demonstrate that Spycraft's rules can be used for non-spy games.

Honestly, you'll be fine with either. I'm playing d20 Modern and love it, but both of them are going to be fun. There's not a wrong decision here -- once you get the flavor-text right, the rules for either game will likely support you. Both games offer danger to even high-level players (WP/VP versus the Massive Damage Threshold of d20 Modern), both present varied combat options, and both offer skills and special abilities that make people shine even out of combat, without FX.

 

[FraserRonald]

Hey all.

I would vote d20 Modern, and that's not for any mercenary reasons. (Sorry, bad pun) In truth, I've played similar style campaigns with both Spycraft and d20 Modern. I really felt that Spycraft is great at the spy genre, at the over-the-top, James Bond type games. I think it would also be good for action blockbuster movies. It really didn't suit the relatively realistic special operations campaign that we were in. Part of that could be easily fixed with modifications to the massive damage threshold rules and some of the firearms feats, but things built into the rules, like the gadget system, just seemed out of place for a team of high speed SAS-types.

d20 Modern, I found, to be very applicable for this same type of game. The massive damage threshold in d20 gives it the proper feeling of one mistake could cost you your life, and characters aren't likely to go all Schwarzenagger on the mooks. I made some adjustments as well, changing a few of the firearms feats again, but the feel of d20 just seemed closer--out of the box, as it were--for the campaign.

Now, if you are thinking of an A-Team type game, maybe that level of realism isn't what you are looking for. I guess, for my game, d20 Modern was the best fit. For your game, well, I guess you've got a lot of advice to peruse right now. Hope these 2 cents helped.

Take care all.

 

[Henry]

I love both d20 Modern and Spycraft, but Spycraft does certain things better than d20 Modern in my opinion. Among them are:

• Snipers. Due to the nature of criticals in Spycraft versus Modern, sniping is a very doable activity that does not depend solely on luck. In Modern, all the core feats together for ranged shots cannot give you more than a slim chance of forcing a massive damage save, no matter your level - the target will on top of that get a saving throw to avoid the effect.
  In Spycraft, at 9th level a properly trained sniper can force outright death on most target around 25 to 30% of the time - partly because you choose when to activate criticals. A Master Sniper (minimum 18th level) with a Barret .50 caliber gun can kill his opponent on something like 45% of the time (critical hit when braced and aimed on an 11-20, don't have to spend an action die to activate critical, and 2d10+4 goes straight to wounds and bypasses vitality). Trained snipers are rightfully deadly in the setting.
• Although vitality has its storytelling flaws, it still causes injury impairment to those who are wounded. It actively separates wounds from windedness and fatigue and minor damage.
• The character classes each offer many exciting class abilities that are more than bonuses to rolls and outcomes. A low-level Faceman can ask the GM three questions once per day about anyone he has studied for a while. The pointman can substitute his die rolls for the whole team in certain situations. The Wheelman can do nigh-impossible feats once per session with his vehicle.
  In addition, Spycraft has a PHENOMENAL list of varied feats, that range from simple combat bonuses, to styles of martial arts, to style feats for your faceman to have secret identities from 'Carlo to the Congo.
• Spycraft does have much more variety and attractiveness to its weapon selections in its supplements than Modern does, mainly due to the nature of Modern gun mechanics. Modern firearms are differentiated by damage (2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12), range, and reload capacity. Spycraft has wider damage variances, more circumstances for range and effect, and each firearm (if using the Modern Firearms Guide) also has other qualities (knockdown effect, armor-defeating, composite materials, etc.) Each firearm, special equipment, and other gear has add-on options to consider. Does that special sniper in the team like his chrome-plated, suppressed, gas-vented, bull barrelled SVD rifle? Then he can spend the signature feats to make it his signature weapon.

There are obviously some things to change, but its style as the game designer pointed out was indeed originally designed while thinking about the action and team dynamics of the A-Team as well as the likes of James Bond and Peter Gunn. I find it well worth the use of it.

 

[buzzard]

I'm a big Spycraft fan myself. I am only vaguely familiar with D20 Modern, but what I've seen of it led me to remain only vaguely familiar- just a matter of personal preference.

But, to answer the question at hand, if you want an A-Team campaign like the TV show, Spycraft is your game. It has good combat rules and a lot of neat rules that make things more like Hollywood. You can drop a lot of those to make it more realistic however. I'm also a big fan of VP/WP rules since without them you really can't more than 1 combat per week or so.

Oh yeah, then there's chase rules. Spycraft is pretty well known for having the best chase rules around.

buzzard