d20 Modern Questions

[wingsandsword]

Is anyone else frustrated by the paucity of skill points in d20 Modern? The skill system is so rich and interesting, but the skills are so fragmented (surely someone capable of disarming a bomb has the manual dexterity and probably picked up some lockpicking skills along the way) that as I'm going to be running a Black Ops campaign, I'm tempted just to house rule that everyone gets three or four extra skill points per level.

One suggestion that a member of this forum gave me - and it's an excellent suggestion - is skill groupings, where if you have a skill point in one member of the group, you are considered to have a skill point in all the skills in that group. It's a great idea, but it bends away from the d20 + skill + mod simplicity that I like, and my players tend to prefer.

Thoughts?

No, I think d20M is quite skill rich actually. Characters get permanent class skills regardless of multiclassing, there are many classes that give large amounts of skill points, and lots of class abilities and bonus feats that also provide skill boosts. In no d20 Modern campaign I've ever been in or run has anybody ever lamented they just plain didn't have enough skill points, or their skills weren't high enough.

This is especially so when you realize that 1st level isn't a typical everyday person, the typical adult is about 3rd level, with 1st level characters being more like naive college undergraduates, raw recruits, and particularly experienced teenagers. It's not meant to be a game where the average guy is 1st level. Remember that even your typical Joe Average might well be a Dedicated Ordinary 2/Fast Ordinary 1 with the Blue Collar starting occupation (and 10's and 11's in all stats) and 30 skill points over those 3 levels (5x4 at 1st Dedicated, 5 at 2nd for Fast, 5 at 3rd for Dedicated). He could have 6 ranks in 5 skills, or 6 ranks in 2 skills, 4 ranks in 3 skills and 2 ranks in 3 skills.

So, our hypothetical Typical Man on the Street Dedicated Ordinary 2/Fast Ordinary 1 could have (let's say he's an auto mechanic at a local garage)
Repair +8 (Permanent Class Skill, 6 ranks and +2 from Gearhead)
Craft (Mechanical) +6 (Permanent Class Skill)
Drive +4 (Permanent Class Skill)
Knowledge (Popular Culture) +4
Profession +4
Computer Use +3 (bought cross-class, +2 from Gearhead)
Knowledge (Current Events) +2
Feats: Simple Weapon Proficiency, Brawl, Gearhead, Personal Firearms Proficiency

That isn't a skill-weak system, when you realize that PC's will have a lot more levels, probably a higher Int, and bonus feats that improve skills. That's a lot more skills than you'd find in your typical Commoner "man on the street" in D&D.

 

[ValhallaGH]

What molonel seems to be bemoaning, and I have to agree with him, is the inablity of As Written d20 Modern to create characters that are moderately powerful in combat and capable of the list of skills normally associated with action heroes, without making them five or more levels higher than their opposition.

If you want to have a party that more or less resembles a U.S. Navy SEAL team in composition and deed, starting the campaign at about level 5, then for the gameplay to reflect the expectations of being SEALs you need the first four of five levels of adventure to be opposed by 1/1 Ordinaries without ranks in the detection skills and who do not have Fast levels. Otherwise most of the party will have a danged difficult time hiding (something SEALs are supposed to be good at), hitting targets (another claimed specialty) and generally being as effective as their characters are supposed to be.
Also, you'll need to gloss over all the swimming scenes, since few classes get Swim as a class skill and it's not appropriate for an uninjured SEAL to drown in calm waters.

The Military starting occupation says that it represents all military backgrounds, from National Guard to Special Forces, and the core rulebook assumes starting play from 1st level. This means that you can start a game at first level, with a character that was supposed to have been a Navy SEAL, and have a character sheet that in no way resembles the concept. Having to start the campaign at 10th or 18th level just to get a realistic SEAL character is not a good thing, in my oppinion.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

And having to house-rule special circumstances into a game in order to start with a character that's a recruit instead of a SEAL Team Leader isn't a good thing, in my opinion.

It's a catch22, I think. You get one, you lose the other.

--fje

 

[ValhallaGH]

Could you elaborate, Heap? I may just be having a stupid moment but your reply didn't make any sense.

 

[hobgoblin]

hmm, shouldnt a seal be very good at locating other seals?

so if a seal is equal to level 5, then any other thats at level 5 is, in training if not in name, allso a seal?

 

[Vigilance]

What molonel seems to be bemoaning, and I have to agree with him, is the inablity of As Written d20 Modern to create characters that are moderately powerful in combat and capable of the list of skills normally associated with action heroes, without making them five or more levels higher than their opposition.

If you want to have a party that more or less resembles a U.S. Navy SEAL team in composition and deed, starting the campaign at about level 5, then for the gameplay to reflect the expectations of being SEALs you need the first four of five levels of adventure to be opposed by 1/1 Ordinaries without ranks in the detection skills and who do not have Fast levels. Otherwise most of the party will have a danged difficult time hiding (something SEALs are supposed to be good at), hitting targets (another claimed specialty) and generally being as effective as their characters are supposed to be.
Also, you'll need to gloss over all the swimming scenes, since few classes get Swim as a class skill and it's not appropriate for an uninjured SEAL to drown in calm waters.

The Military starting occupation says that it represents all military backgrounds, from National Guard to Special Forces, and the core rulebook assumes starting play from 1st level. This means that you can start a game at first level, with a character that was supposed to have been a Navy SEAL, and have a character sheet that in no way resembles the concept. Having to start the campaign at 10th or 18th level just to get a realistic SEAL character is not a good thing, in my oppinion.

Except if you assume the average military recruit is 2nd to 3rd level (and if you look in the core rules or the menace manual you'll see that's accurate), then having a SEAL be 10th level makes perfect sense.

It's just a question of what you want out of the game.

Starting a group of PCs as Navy SEALs is fine, I've done it, but you start them at about 8th level (that's what I did when I ran that campaign).

This is the equivalent of starting the PCs off in an epic campaign as heroes, like Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas etc.

At the start of the books, those characters have already had tons of adventures we don't get to see, they're already heroes.

If you want to play a MILITARY campaign, then you can start at 1st level, your characters just won't be the best of the best.

I don't think this is a problem with d20 Modern personally, just your expectations of it. You want GURPs, where characters start out at a very high level of proficiency, when what you're playing is a level system, where characters start out closer to Xander Harris.

 

[wingsandsword]

The Military starting occupation says that it represents all military backgrounds, from National Guard to Special Forces, and the core rulebook assumes starting play from 1st level. This means that you can start a game at first level, with a character that was supposed to have been a Navy SEAL, and have a character sheet that in no way resembles the concept. Having to start the campaign at 10th or 18th level just to get a realistic SEAL character is not a good thing, in my oppinion.

I think it is quite the good thing, because simply put, Navy SEAL's are elite. They are not typical "adventuring sorts", and they do need to have some serious level behind them to back up that skill.

Just because the "Military' occupation is intended to reflect people from any military background, does not mean having it implies the skills equivalent to any military position, it means that when you hit 1st level, you were in a military background.

If you want to run a campaign from 1st level as SEAL's, start the campaign as they all enlist. Run them through a session of "Basic Training" for some roleplaying and play through a wargame scenario, some quick sessions to get levels where they have a few adventures as sailors (fighting pirates, serving shore duty in dangerous places, dealing with a fire/serious accident aboard ship). Then, later on, they enter BUD/S, and have a chance at earning their SEAL Trident. Don't be afraid to have PC's fail and wash out, and have them bring in new PCs at this time. By the time they earn their Special Warfare Badge they should be high level.

Look at the web enhancement for Urban Arcana, they even have a "SpecOp" prestige class, one of the first ones ever published for d20 Modern, meant to represent "Past or present members of Delta Force, the green berets, the SEALs, the SAS, Spetznaz, and other elite military and paramilitary units". Becoming a SEAL isn't reaching 1st level and beginning your adventuring career, it's getting your Prestige Class (the SpecOp class requires 7th level at an absolute minimum to get into). A "typical SEAL", like a Strong Hero 3/Soldier 4/SpecOp 3 may well be a 10th level heroic character, and if the typical grunt he'll run across is a 4th level ordinary, he should have absolutely no problems dealing with him.

So, by the same turn, do you think D&D characters should be calling themselves High Priests, Grand Druids, Archmages, Master Alchemists and the like at 1st level? No. If characters want to be elite, they need to have the skills (and thus level) to back it up. If you want to start a D&D campaign where the PC's begin as members of a renowned order of warriors who are a Kingdom's greatest defenders, that better not be at 1st level. There is absolutely nothing wrong with starting a campaign at 10th or 11th level if the power level and skill level the GM wants from the PC's reflects that.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Could you elaborate, Heap? I may just be having a stupid moment but your reply didn't make any sense.

What I was saying was if you want a game where you start as a SEAL, I.E. "one of the most highly trained military personel on the planet" then you need a game where the characters start with lots of skills, where they're "the best of the best of the best, sir!".

However, if you have a game where the characters start off, at the very start, with the skills and abilities to pull off "the best of the best of the best, sir!" at 1st level ... what do you do when you want to play recruits? If the LOWEST level is "total badass" then ... what do you do to play less than that?

You sort of get a choice ... a game where people start off as recruits, where-upon if you want to start off as SEALs you can't do so at 1st level ... or a game where people start off as badkiesters, where-upon you have to house-rule and impinge to get recruits.

Neither is a bad way to play, just hard to do both recruits and SEALs as 1st level characters in the same game.

--fje

 

[ValhallaGH]

Thank you for elaborating, Heap, I now see your argument.

I disagree, but that's a post for a later day, when I actually feel like explaining my position rather than hugging a pillow.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think 1st-level SEALs would break my suspension of disbelief. 1st-level NPCs are common, even military ones. It's hard for a 1st-level SEAL to claim they're "better" than other soldiers.

(This isn't to disparage regular soldiers. Regular soldiers can be any level, even 20th. SEALs need quite a few levels.)

And, finally, if the heroes know you only need to be 1st-level to be a SEAL, then facing SEAL-equivalent opponents won't exactly have them shaking in their boots.