d20 Modern Questions

[arscott]

The Military starting occupation says that it represents all military backgrounds, from National Guard to Special Forces, and the core rulebook assumes starting play from 1st level. This means that you can start a game at first level, with a character that was supposed to have been a Navy SEAL, and have a character sheet that in no way resembles the concept. Having to start the campaign at 10th or 18th level just to get a realistic SEAL character is not a good thing, in my oppinion.

I think part of this comes from a misinterpretation about the military starting occupation. Rather than reading it as "Any character (1st level or higher) with the military occupation might be from any military background, such as national guard to special forces", read it as "For a character from any military bacground (such as national guard or special forces), the Military starting occupation is an appropriate choice."

Basically, it's not that the occupation makes your 1st level character anything from national guard to navy seal, it's that it makes your 10th level sniper a navy seal rather than a mob hitman.

 

[Vigilance]

It's part of the problem with a level based system.

A lot of people have this problem with D&D if they come to the game from another genre such as the LOTR movies. They want to play Aragorn or Gandalf but they have to start out as Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit.

 

[Ranger REG]

It's part of the problem with a level based system.

A lot of people have this problem with D&D if they come to the game from another genre such as the LOTR movies. They want to play Aragorn or Gandalf but they have to start out as Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit.

Is it truly a problem playing a mixed-level PC party/crew/unit, or it just a perception?

 

[Vigilance]

Is it truly a problem playing a mixed-level PC party/crew/unit, or it just a perception?

Oh I didn't mean to say it's a flaw in level systems themselves, more a disconnect where people expect those systems to do things they aren't designed to do.

I personally have no problem starting PCs at higher level if I want to run a campaign reflecting higher competence, and M&M starts PCs at 10th level by default because they're super.

But I do remember a lot of discussion in the early days of D&D from folks who were disappointed they started out closer to Mickey in Sorcerer's apprentice than Gandalf and a lot of the point-based systems of the day, like Fantasy Hero, touted their ability to start PCs off at a more competent level.

Now that D&D has become a standard, people more or less accept that they start at lower levels of competence and work their way up.

But with Modern, people look to their fiction again, and see characters like the Ethan Hunt in MI: III or the Navy SEALS in, well, Navy SEALs, or characters like Halo.

It doesn't bother ME that a 1st level character can't represent a Navy SEAL though, because I have a hard time buying that Navy SEALs are less than 7th level in a 20th level scale (with 20 being someone like, Audie Murphy I guess).

 

[ValhallaGH]

I fully understand that to accurately depict a SEAL would require a minimum of 10 levels and probably 15 levels. I'm not trying to deny this, claim otherwise, or convince others to believe otherwise.
However, 15th level is generally much higher than I wish to start games at, particularly long-term campaigns. I'd prefer to start at 5th level or first level, depending.

My point is not to make a first level character that's the 'best of the best of the best'. My point is to make a first level character that could believably claim to be a basically trained SEAL. Ranks in Hide and Move Silently, Swim, Climb, Jump, Knowledge (Tactics), Demolitions, Survival, Navigate, a few others that fit him as a random person and still have enough combat potential to be some sort of threat. Sure, he's not as good as an actual Navy SEAL but he has the basics and can grow into the correct level of skill and badassitude as he progresses in level.
With the RAW skill system, that is not a possibility, not at all. The closest one can get is a Fast Hero with a combination of Climb, Demolitions, Jump, Navigate, Survival or Swim as class skills from occupation, and an 18 int.
With my skill groups system, it is possible, though difficult, to have both the needed skills and some combat ability.

If I wanted a system that allowed a starting character to be either a raw recruit or a legend in the SpecOps community then I'd play a skill-based system such as GURPS, orginal Dead Lands, WoD or Shadowrun. Any of those can allow both characters to be, some of them at the same time from the same generation methods. I prefer class/level systems for my gaming, and d20 in particular. I just don't like certain aspects of the as written rules.

 

[Henry]

If I wanted a system that allowed a starting character to be either a raw recruit or a legend in the SpecOps community then I'd play a skill-based system such as GURPS, orginal Dead Lands, WoD or Shadowrun.

Or Spycraft Where he would also work pretty well, even at low level. Someone did once bring up an important point: the new design of Spycraft makes levels independent from the "badass-itude" and skill of the character, through the really nice new feats, through the redesign of NPC's, through the new skill system, and through skill result caps. You could have a believeable SEAL-in-training at 1st level, and an actual Navy SEAL at 3rd or 4th level.

 

[hobgoblin]

My point is to make a first level character that could believably claim to be a basically trained SEAL.

not possible in any way, shape or form, what so ever...

 

[Vigilance]

Or Spycraft Where he would also work pretty well, even at low level. Someone did once bring up an important point: the new design of Spycraft makes levels independent from the "badass-itude" and skill of the character, through the really nice new feats, through the redesign of NPC's, through the new skill system, and through skill result caps. You could have a believeable SEAL-in-training at 1st level, and an actual Navy SEAL at 3rd or 4th level.

Uhhuh. But still not a SEAL at 1st level.

And again, if you COULD do that, I still dont think it would be DESIRABLE.

Except perhaps for Delta Force, SEALs are the most elite soldiers in the world. So that should be a 1st level character?

 

[Vigilance]

I fully understand that to accurately depict a SEAL would require a minimum of 10 levels and probably 15 levels. I'm not trying to deny this, claim otherwise, or convince others to believe otherwise.

I disagree. I think 7th level would be fine. Here's the requirements from my book Blood and Guts II: Special Operations Command (available at RPGNow). Not *easy* at 7th level, but doable, and definitely doable by 10th level.

unit requirements
To qualify for Navy SEALs a character must meet the
following criteria.
BAB: 7+
Skills: Knowledge (tactics) 10 ranks, Hide 5 ranks,
Move Silently 5 ranks, Swim 10 ranks, Spot 8 ranks
Feats: MOS Rifleman, MOS Diver, Jump School,
Amphibious Assault Training, Teamwork (US Navy)
Talents: Terrain Specialization x2 (both for
amphibious terrain)

 

[ValhallaGH]

With all due respect, Vigilance, your book, popular though it is, is neither core to Modern nor to the United States Navy Sea Air and Land forces. While I have a great deal of respect for the work and research you put into the majority of your products, that set of requirements is as arbitrary as any other set I choose to use.

What I find far more interesting is how everyone has been sidetracked from the actual discussion into the question of "what level is a Navy SEAL?"
Are you simply conceeding my point about the nature of skills in d20 Modern? Or are you hoping that I will also forget the actual ceter of the discussion and allow you to claim victory?