d20 Modern Questions

[Morgenstern]

Prerequisite: Personal Firearms Proficiency or
Officer Candidate School

Skills: Choose any three of the following as permanent class skills: Climb, Craft (structural), Demolitions, Disable Device, Drive, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (tactics), Navigate, Search, Spot, Survival and Tumble. If a skill you select is already a class skill, you receive a +1 competence bonus on checks using that skill.

Bonus Feats: Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Air Assault Training, Amphibious Assault Training, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, heavy), Athletic, Burst Fire, Combat Martial Arts, Combat Reflexes,Confident, Cover Fire, Dead Aim, Desert Warfare College, Endurance, Exotic Firearms Proficiency, Far Shot, Forced March, Jump School, Jungle/Swamp Warfare College, MOS Mastery, Mountain Warfare College, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, SERE, Signaling, Strafe, Teamwork, Urban Warfare College, Weapon Focus

So the MOS expands the range of skills available as well as determining the bonus feats your classes grant access to.

Sounds pretty cool. So it basically remaps some features of the basic classes so you can make very martial/military choices while advancing as a Smart or Charismatic hero for example? Seems like a nice twist.


...Actually, can you explain this phrase to me, as I've seen it in the occupations also.

"If a skill you select is already a class skill, you receive a +1 competence bonus on checks using that skill."

Do you know what appens if I get this at first level (from an occupation for example) and its a class skill for me that level, but I change classes later? Does the +1 go away but the skills stay class skills, or do I keep the +1, but pay extra for ranks if its not a class skill for the class I shifted into? Or is there some sort of once a class skill always a class skill rule I'm missing?

 

[Vigilance]

I think you keep the bonus.

At least I have always ruled that you keep it.

 

[jezter6]

Do you know what appens if I get this at first level (from an occupation for example) and its a class skill for me that level, but I change classes later? Does the +1 go away but the skills stay class skills, or do I keep the +1, but pay extra for ranks if its not a class skill for the class I shifted into? Or is there some sort of once a class skill always a class skill rule I'm missing?

You don't pay extra skills per rank because it's an occupation class skill, it never becomes a cross class skill.

I'd imagine you keep the +1 because it was a class skill for the class and the occupation at the time of skill purchase.

I hate modifiers that aren't permanent, so I'd rule it the same way as Vigilance.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Keep the bonus. Not to get computer-y, but you check the rule at creation and it stays forever. Same with "Class" vs "Cross-Class" max ranks. If, at any time, your check returned "True" to "Class Skill?" then there-after that skill is set to Lvl+3. SPENDING skill points is checked at the time of spending, so if Class Skill? returns False then you're spending 2-for-1. Etc etc. It's one of those things about the rules that are, oddly, horribly complicated in essence, but that most people don't really recall ever having contemplated deeply.

Skills, I feel, are a thorny issue. They're sort of handled one way through the d20 core (by this I mean WotC-released material). To change that is really getting the wrench into the larger works of compatibility. Why I always gaze with the hairy eye upon skill system changes. And yet, I will agree ... some things are TOO granulated in the core assumptions. Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen are big ones for me. I have, in the past, combined those into "Stealth" and "Notice" before, for games in which the skill points were a little thin (d20SWRPG I'm lookin' at you, kid).

Jury is still out on whether or not I like the "one skill, multiple check types" of SC2. I think I like it, but my larger problem is the skills themselves and their relation to the period/genre.

We've handed out more skill points before. My current group, in our D&D AoW game, handed out a flat +2sp/lvl increase for all classes since we like a more skill-heavy game.

--fje

 

[molonel]

I'm going to agree with Vigilance that a Navy SEAL is going to be at bare-bones minimum a 7th or 8th level character, and that's going to be someone who probably graduated from Hell Week within the last year or two rather than an experienced operator. Delta Force commandos are going to be at a much higher level, probably 10th to 12th, and a ranger could conceivably be as low as 5th or 6th, in my opinion.

I'm asking all of these questions because once I finish up my present D&D campaign at 24th level, I'm going to drop it, and run a d20 Modern Black Ops campaign. I've been doing a mind-numbing amount of reading, including all of the books I could find on the SEALs, and Delta Force. I've read all of the novels and nonfiction by Richard Marcinko, and Charlie Beckwith's book on the formation of Delta Force, and a lot of other book titles that aren't coming back to me at nearly midnight when I've been taking server exams all day.

I'm not going to criticize someone who runs them at lower levels. Run your game however you want. I think in a 20-level system, having a Navy SEAL at about 8th to 12th level fits very nicely, though. I would put a raw recruit at probably 2nd or 3rd level, maybe 4th, but that's me.

Vigilance's work is the best and most extensive I've found, although for one of my characters who is going to be a sniper, I'm probably going to use either the the Special Operations Marksman, or the Counterterrorism Assaulter from Sword's Edge Publishing. The Navy SEAL in B&G2 works well, and I'm probably going to use it with some modifications for one guy who wants to be a demolitions specialist. His character goal? "I want to blow s*** up!"

I highly recommend the material in B&G2, although I can't stress highly enough that the second printing corrected a lot of errors from B&G1. The former really had WAY too many requirements for all of the special ops classes. B&G2 still falls off the log in this direction, in my opinion, but it still twirls in the air bravely for a few moments before falling.

I also recommend the GURPs Special Operations book, and the Black Ops book, for flavor.

The person who is going to be the tactical leader wants to create a character like Captain America in The Ultimates graphic novel, but scaled down for a more "real world" scenario (i.e. - no jumping out of helicopters 600 feet in the air). I finally found a possible super soldier advanced class today in

My final player wants to be a tracker, scout and healer along the lines of someone like Tom Brown. I'm still working on that one.

By the way, Vigilance, don't take anything I said as slighting your work in any way. B&G and B&F have been the standards by which I judged or discarded material in preparing for this campaign. In fact, I preferred the way you wrote it, because I find it easier to loosen up tight restrictions, than to tighten up loose or insufficient requirements.

 

[Vigilance]

By the way, Vigilance, don't take anything I said as slighting your work in any way. B&G and B&F have been the standards by which I judged or discarded material in preparing for this campaign. In fact, I preferred the way you wrote it, because I find it easier to loosen up tight restrictions, than to tighten up loose or insufficient requirements.

No offense taken

When I did the Blood and Guts books the first time around, I did my research and tried to represent the different special operations groups as faithfully as possible. There's a lot of stuff in the first B&G, from the vehicles to the new combat rules to the MOS feats that Im really really proud of.

Unfortunately, I forgot some of the lessons learned from Blood and Fists (which I had just written-no one ever said I was bright) about leaving lots of wiggle room for different builds so a character written from B&G could fit in all sorts of non-military campaigns.

What I wound up with was a book that worked good if the entire campaign was nothing but military/special ops adventures, which wasn't what I wanted. So I really worked hard when doing the second edition to make things more open, to get rid of a lot of feats that didnt do a whole lot.

I still probably could have gone further, but I wanted to keep that feeling that being a special operator MEANT something. That it was a tough row to hoe and was a realistic goal you might pursue for several levels .

To me, as the son of a special operator, who heard stories about endless hours on the rifle range, that still felt like the way to go.

 

[molonel]

Vigilance, is there any way I can talk to you offline? I'm having some problems accessing rpgobjects.com, and it may be an issue that I need to discuss with someone who works at the site/store.

EDIT: By offline, I don't mean something like a personal phone call.

An email address would be grand, if that's possible.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I've used Blood & Guts extensively.

Mainly for the Hold At All Costs series for Year of the Zombie.

THe Pregenerated PC's are 7th level, and work excellently as a Ranger team.

Sure, it doesn't reflect perfectly what a Ranger is capable of, but it works for fun, and gives a good time.

d20 Modern wasn't really built for military games anyway. Take a look at the craptacular armored vehicles, take a look how autofire and burst fire works. Why is bustfire a seperate feat from advanced firearms prof?

Still, Vig did a good job with B&G.

 

[Vigilance]

Vigilance, is there any way I can talk to you offline? I'm having some problems accessing rpgobjects.com, and it may be an issue that I need to discuss with someone who works at the site/store.

EDIT: By offline, I don't mean something like a personal phone call.

An email address would be grand, if that's possible.

Sure- you can drop me an IM on yahoo or an email at ricecharles2112(at)netzero(dot)net.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Sure- you can drop me an IM on yahoo or an email at ricecharles2112(at)netzero(dot)net.

The email don't work, Vig, and I've been trying to get ahold of you for about 2 weeks.

ralts (at) hotmail.com